Hi @nugget, I was filling the data on your calculator Excel sheet (thanks for putting that together!) and noticed something strange in the formulas: if I change the value in cell I16, the values in the graph for control case stash also changes. Thatâs not expected to have an effect, is it?
UPDATE: Ah, I missed the explanation at the top of the sheet: the rest of the investment goes to the control fund. All clear now.
@SwissChalet
you are pointing out a crucial point here. I made this assumption of identical assets under the impression of Obermattâs 7% return assumption which i think is too optimistic for the swiss investor.
however I also pointed out in the original post, that a 0.5% outperformance of a portfolio outside of 3a will completely compensate the tax benefit in the given simulation.
however, with a CHF 200k income you income tax and therefore the tax benefit might be high enough to offset this calculation in favor of 3a. Since the tax bonus is practically the 3a-provisions times your income tax rate, you can easily calculate this and put it into the simulation. I am curious what comes out of this. you might have to change (simplify?) the tax calculations then. Let me know if you need any assistance.
@pombeirp
hey pomberip,
I am glad that finally somebody looks into that excel sheet! I stopped working on it a while ago, but if you find a bug, i will fix it. I would be curious about your comments of this sheet
Thanks Nugget. I have no âfinancialâ German, am not an Excel whiz and live in Basel so adjusting the model ia a stretch for me. Iâll ask my accountant his advice but youâre probably right that i should do it. thanks
HI everyone,
forgive me as I will be asking extremely basic questions. Iâm new to all of this and would really like to get more familiar. Thank you for the tutorial. Here are my questions/confusions.
I just turned 30, is it still worth investing in pillar 3a? Or should I focus on somewhere else?
It is mentioned that with pillar 3a, I can fill it with ETFs/stocks etc. of my choice. So I still need to pick out these things? I thought I could just set a monthly deposit in the pillar 3a and that was the end of that?
I am currently with UBS. Any opinions on their savings/pillar 3a accounts?
Aside from pillar 3a, I would also like to start investing my money elsewhere (other than savings account) for long term. I like to keep things simple and it seems index funds is the way to go. I am also thinking of finding a few (possibly the 3 fund portfolio I see here) and setting up a monthly deposit to these after the initial minimum. Any advice on how to start out?
hey @ATourist,
thanks for posting to give you some quick first-approximation-answers:
just turned 30
age is the least important factor to decide for or against 3a pillar. unless you are chasing the last bit of performance, I think generally you cannot be wrong with 3a-Investing. As long as you have not fully made up your mind, I recommend you to max out a 3a with a simple savings account to benefit from the tax excemption. you can then at a later point (better sooner than later, lets say within a year) decide what to do with this money within 3a. Keep in mind you cannot easily get it out of the 3a framework, but shift it between 3a products.
ETFs/stocks etc. of my choice. So I still need to pick out these things?
Yes and no. Yes because ther are products that allow you to pick ETFs out of a (quite small) basket. You find more about this in this thread. No because the âyes caseâ is rather exceptional today, so most 3a stock based solutions (that are considered by mustachians) let you buy a fund of funds with given allocation of underlying funds, so your coice is more âpick a risk level between 1 and 5â rather than on individual assets. In both cases monthly paiments are usually applicable.
UBS
Since UBS in general is expensive, the mustachian consensus is to move avay to less expensive banks. This mostly holds for theiy 3a funds, but i never looked it up in detail. so no advice from my side here
Any advice on how to start out?
yes: first take some time and read up on the topic âpassive indexing for private investorsâ until you have a clear picture on the whole thing. find some recources here. Once you have a clear picture on what your long term strategy is, set up an account with some broker (you find a couple of threads in this forum about this topic) and execute it.
normal low cost brokers require you to do the transactions yourself, which (in case of a montly occurence) might conflict with the idea to keep transactions costs low. If you donât want to be involved other than a monthly wire transfer, a robo advisor (Truewealth) might be interesting for you.
Ah so I also need to research on which institution to start my pillar 3a. You did mention that UBS pillar 3a does not seem to be recommended.
Yes I have been hearing about this for a while. However I am a doctoral student which allows me to keep an account with free maintenance. But I will read up more on what to do and where for pillar 3a.
Thank you for the link however it seems most of the books are in German. I will check if I can find translations, but do you have a list for english speakers?
Could you elaborate a little bit more on what work is expected for going with a broker instead of Truewealth? It does sound like Truewealth is what I am looking for, but MPâs blogpost is really intriguing (from the link you posted)
Thanks again for the links. I am also slowly going through MPâs blog from his first entry onwards, and well itâs quite daunting as there are so much I donât know about the investment world.
Iâd strongly advise against pillar 3a unless youâre reasonably certain that youâre going to withdraw the money in next few years, such as for emigration abroad or property downpayment. Understand, itâs a game between you, the tax office and the banks, and itâs rigged in banksâ favor from the start.
The only upside for you in this game is the tax savings, so be sure to estimate it well: itâs your marginal income tax rate minus withdrawal tax rate in the future. If youâre student, your tax rate is likely very low and thus thereâs little for you to gain from pillar 3a.
The downsides to 3a are that you cannot take the money out except in very few cases, savings interest is absolutely miserable, and fund-based accounts are relatively expensive and inflexible.
The best and one of the cheapest offers on the market Iâve seen is from Vermögenszentrum, which allow you to go 80% stocks and choose your own investments. But even they charge rather high 0.68% fee + ETFâs TER.
0.68% fee compounded over 30 years means youâre giving up on almost 20% of your investment over this time horizon!
I donât recommend truewealth for similar reasons. Fees compound and really eat into your retirement money. Thereâs nothing that they really bring you onto the table unless youâre lazy and canât be bothered to track your investments and login to your broker every month to do a couple of trades
I disagree with @hedgehog.
my spreadsheet returns to me a 6% or CHF 30-35k advantage on a 30 year long commitment for 3a for the given parameters. The argument that it is so much worse compared to an independent account does not hold, at least not as claimed by hedgehog.
You omnit the 17% bonus on each down-payment and wealth tax excemption, that in the case of zurich already kicks in at CHF 70k.
however true is, 0.68% is by far not optimal. Butthere are other, more important reasons to (not) engange into 3a than performance.
@ATourist: @6â768: Yes, that is the maximum tax excempt amount unless you are not connected to a pension fund (2nd pillar). dont put in more than that. the number is ttally independent from UBS, regardless of existing accounts with UBS. @books: look closer at the list, important lectures are by R.Ferri and bogleheads. all in enlgish @broker vs. bank vs. truewealth: work required with a standard broker is logging in every now and then and manually select and buy new shares and rebalance your portfolio. more costly solutions such as VZ and Truewelth charge you a little money to cover these expenses and do this selection for you, up to a certain degree.
there are so much I donât know about the investment world.
very good insight! educating yourself is the best investment of all! I started with the same feeling and at drastically changedâŠ
Hello to everyone! Iâm new here. Hope that my contribution will be of value to the community.
First of all I would like to say THANK YOU to all of the Mustachians in this forum. It is one of the best comprehensive gatherings of serious and well informed people who respect each other!
Iâm currently in the phase of finding out whether a 3a pillar is something worth consideration. @Nugget: great spread sheet! Really useful and at a glance vehicle.
I might be wrong, but I think the option of 3a pillar depot (i.e. with VZ) should not only consider tax savings compounding over the years vs fees vs non-3a-investments, but also:
the cushion of 1200/6768 = 17% immediate return on the 3a annual amount should be very much considered as a premium.
annual tax savings should be invested in your broker account immediately (1200 CHF @ 5% avg.)
in the nearest future (most likely) there will be more products available on the market (low costs, better ETF baskets available, etc.). One should not forget that switching between 3a products is possible and should be relatively cheap. The securities will have to be sold though.
swapping from one 3a product to another one in the future with a stash of money x already sitting in your 3a account will boost your CHF returns assuming the product you will be swapping to is cheaper and offers other benefits (otherwise you wonât be swapping anyways)
agree with @hedgehog (one of the past threads on 3a pillar) that the tax benefit is being slowly eaten away by the fees over the years of continuous contributions and hopefully positive returns. If the tax savings are being looked at as separate savings which can and should be invested, than it wonât happen in 8 years or so. According to my calculations this sad break-even is reached after some ±20 years.
I think practical implications of this issue is that itâs better to first achieve FI and then fund 3a rather than the other way round. With Vanguard @ IB we can get faster to the FI number, and then we can continue investing in 3a to optimize taxation (especially the wealth tax). But Iâm not really sure if 3a makes sense at all for Mustachians. I continue investing into the @_MPâs recommended 3a fund, but I have serious doubts about it.
Exactly, I have run the number multiple times and only if you are in the high-end tax bracket 3a would make sense. Moreover, with the 3a pillar, you are locked. The state could increase the withdrawal taxes, remove the option to withdraw 3a to buy a house or start a business or remove the option to invest 3a in stocks.
Thank you guys for your replies. I totally get it. I really do One more attempt: IÂŽve prepared a spread sheet with my elementary school level calculations.
Assumptions:
VZ Total TER (0,68%+ETF TER) = 0,92%. VZ portfolio composition I found in one of the @nugget posts here
Overall Yield 5.0% for (1) IB Depot option and (2) VZ portfolio + investing the tax savings with IB (for comparability purposes)
Tax saving annually 1200 CHF
Total TER of ETF invested with IB depot 0,2%
I do not consider stamp tax, trading costs at IB, Depot fee at IB, dividends (therefore pure capital gains), etc.
Here are my results (hope the picture can be enlarged):
Bottom line is, through âmoney generationâ due to tax saving one can compound OK. Yes, you pay higher fees (in my example around 46kCHF in total after 30 years VZ + ETF TER), but there is 6768 CHF (-2% cash) + 1200 CHF tax savings working for you simultaniously, where without 3a pillar investment âonlyâ 6768 CHF would be working for you. One simply has more money for investing. And after a while you can transfer the stash compounded to a safe harbor - standard 3a bank account with hopefully higher interest rate by then. Please keep in mind that within 3a pillar you do not pay taxes on dividends (to my knowledge), helps the compounding in first place. At withdrawal however one has to pay reduced income tax. I believe it is similar when you withdraw an annual amount x from your IB account at retirement. It counts as income and will be taxed. Correct me if Iâm wrong here.
It is however clear that the money in the 3a pillar is locked and accessible only within few scenarios addressed earlier in the blog.
It might be completely stupid to waste time with these calculations, but I (still) believe that there has to be a way to use 3a pillar and currently available products on the market to make it work to your good. Again I think that there will be a better product on the market in the (near) future and swapping from one 3a pillar product to another one is always an option.
Sorry for annoying everyone with this topic again.
Please comment.
one more add: The T&Cs of VZ talk about max allowable 85% (I thought the Limit was 80%) in stock (Anlagenreglement Art.2. 3. ). Does anyone have an idea on how to reach this percentage?
if they reach 85.000000000001% they have to fix it, afaik. that is why they keep that safety margin of 5%. it was the same with all the BVG45 funds, that legally are subject to a 50% rule, and just use a 5% safety interval.
half a year ago i intensively thought on how to allocate my VZ depot, and the portfolio in my other thrad resembles the outcome.
if they changed anything, please prominently post it here
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