Thank you for your kind explanation and helpful clarity. This is something I can work with. I did and do not have a lot of time today, but I want to redo the calculation myself. Your approach is in any case sensible.
Taking etfs at Six, as OP seems to prefer, my main doubt at the moment lies with equating a 30 Mio. etf with a daily turnover of 16k shares (xall) with a 100 billion etf with a daily turnover of 3.5 Mio. shares and a spread of 0.01% (vt). Liquidity is important. Six gives a spread for xall between 0.03 and 0.15, which in my observation can be notably higher. And how to get out of xall again with a notable sum ⊠neither easy nor quick nor cheap.
Just to be clear, I am still concerned by best execution at Degiro. The fee-free ETF list is routed to Tradegate which is a âquote-drivenâ or Single Market Maker (SMM) exchange. Unlike traditional lit exchanges like Xetra, there is no visible order book depth: you only see the best bid and ask price.
BaFin examined whether execution of securities orders on PFOF venues like Tradegate is beneficial or detrimental to retail clients and came to the conclusion that any non-DAX security above 500⏠and any DAX security above 2â000⏠had worse execution on SMM venues. So the practice was clearly detrimental for investors unless you traded in small size.
I am curious to see the consequences of the EU-wide PFOF ban starting tomorrow, 30.06.2026. This is interesting:
Thank you for taking the time to answer. My issue is that I asked for clarity not just about your etfs but also your broker. As others have noted, your arguments reference not just the initially named funds. And should you have chosen Degiro, then this broker does for example have some fixed fees. Anyway, I will from now on focus on Xall and Saxo.
Itâs fine, I can probably put it in the way that you expect. Just keep in mind that it depends on each personal situation, the bottom line being that differences in costs seem negligible, compared to the delta in fund performance.
If you decided to go with Saxo and XALL, it means 1) paying a stamp duty and 2) accepting the L1 drag, two costs that I decided to avoid. That is why my own setup is certainly different than yours.
Same for the transactions fees at exit: I could write that it will cost me a flat fee of 6⏠to liquidate a 3-funds protfolio, but I am fairly certain that 1) no one liquidates an entire portfolio on retirement day 2) I have no idea about the fee schedule in 20 yearâs time.
Same for transaction fees at entry. Transactions fees at Degiro are 2⏠flat (while they depend on your trade size at IBKR) but we can safely assume that for a 10k monthly trade, they are not significant. Or, to be as precise as you wish me to be, and assuming 2% interest rate on the euro, we are talking about a grand total of circa 400⏠over 20 years. I am happy with 12 transactions per year while @gaijin needs 25 transactions per year. I trade on the last business day of the quarter which makes one-off spread costs negligible. You may or may not have the same trading patterns.
Comparing IBKR + VT to a CHF-listed 3-funds portfolio at Degiro:
Cost name
Cost amount
Transaction fees difference with IBKR + VT (one trade per month)
0
Custody fees
0
L1 tax drag compared to VT (US+EM synthetic, Ex-US physical)
0
AutoFX difference with IBKR + VT
+0.03%
TER difference with VT
+0.003%
Spread delta with VT (on EOQ day)
-0.02%
Performance delta with VT (proxy WEBG-USD as of today, YoY)
+1.45%
What should strike you here, is the overperformance of WEBG (as @nabalzbhf explained, due to VTâs small cap edge but itâs still the closest proxy with sufficient data I found) because +1.46% annual edge compounds to a +33.8% total relative advantage after 20 years, while one-off transaction and spread fees are, in all honesty, negligible: I would not focus on the brokerâs fixed fees.
The moral of the story is that VT + IBKR is no magical formula and could be, in fact, pretty average. That is why I prefer to benefit from UCITS and MiFID protections, rather than send my money to US brokers and providers who do not even generate higher returns.
I see a big concern towards US brokers; arenât you equally concerned about the 20 k⏠security protection under the German Investor Compensation Scheme if DeGiro screws up ?
This I am aware of - I think many people are, but the TER and performance difference of different world ETFs - with random factors like rebalancing time, stock sampling and even fluctuating TD is just a bit too much for my taste. a 0.1 difference over like 5y (which could always swing back again randomly) isnât what Buffet was talking about.
It seems that unlike older setups, Securities Lending is now optional also for Basic accounts. You must explicitly âopt inâ via your account settings to allow Degiro to borrow your shares in exchange for a 50/50 profit share.
Therefore I donât see any issue, as long as you route your trades to a transparent exchange.
Even if the broker is lending the securities, they canât just âget lostâ in space⊠the stock market is probably the most strictly monitored and regulated market there is. You can trace every single fraction of a share if such a big collapse happens and short sellers, etc. are the ones âonlyâ owning the rights to buy back later, youâre still the owner of the OG shares.
All on top of the fact that Iâve never heard this happening. Even when banks went banlrupt (like FlowBank) or more prominent: Lehman brothers, customers always were able to recover their assets - it may take a few years, but the securities are protected.
And even if this all fails and you have a margin account with shares lended out for margin AND they somehow get lost irrecoverably - IBKR sets aside 103% of the lend securities as a cash reserve for such a case - this is recalculated daily. So the only time when this would be an issue is in a exceptionally rising market, if the market drops and your shares get lost, youâll get just compensated in cash (and probably have more than you lost lol)âŠ
The number of days where a world ETF swings >3% is miniscule and even if youâd cap the gain to 3% in such a case and are pessimistic, for me personally, this is enough security to sleep like a baby.
Fraud is a possibility, but then the broker is liable and the chance of employees âmass defraudingâ all customers, without it being flagged, noticed, etc. is just very small.
You claim not to be a financial expert. Still, you seem to know better on how to invest my money than I do, without knowing my circumstances. That makes me a bit suspicious if your other claims manage to take into considerations the different needs of other people / investors.
I certainly have no knowledge of, nor do I wish to consider, the personal circumstances of Mr. Jens Poulsen. By âyour moneyâ, I mean the cash-like assets of Swiss investors in general.
Holding USD bonds, cash or equivalents such as BOXX ETF typically gives negative yields in CHF after costs and fees.
Regular Swiss investors [who spend Swiss francs] would prefer a positive yield at their bank, even if tiny, compared to a negative yield
You can read the first post.
Itâs fine, you can have concerns even though @Akia and others took the time to explain why itâs not a concern for them. We all have trust issues and mine is that, when it comes to protecting my interests, I trust European governments more than I trust American governements.
My government and my country have my interests at heart. The US government doesnât.
OK, thanks. I looked at the Xtrackers MSCI USA Swap II UCITS and have to confess that I would not be able to explain to a friend of mine how this fund works and which mechanisms it uses (Indirekte Replikation (Swap)). With VT I feel that I have a much better understanding of the inner workings of this ETF (mainly just following an index). Again, maybe Iâm misguided. But at this point, this feeling of better understanding makes me trust VT more than I trust Xtrackers MSCI USA Swap II UCITS.
The claim of this thread is to present a cheaper alternative to IBKR + VT. Iâm just putting that to the test. For me âcheaperâ would have meant a clear 2-3% savings that everyone would agree with.
Itâs fine, we all spend our lives learning at our own pace, and build confidence on various topics along the way
Cheaper is a strict mathematical concept, and in my case it is demonstrably cheaper, but if you want to focus on your particular case: You save 100% of the FX fees, you decrease TER, you strongly increase the part of your taxes that stays in Switzerland, and you get rid of layers of risk.
I am not going to dive into giving you the perfect portfolio for your own particular case, thatâs your personal journey - but I can encourage you to check other funds: You noticed that WEBG has +1.46% outperformance year-over-year compared to VT, which means +33.8% over 20 years. Does it pique your curiosity, at least?
I am one of those who like to enjoy some remnants of privacy while posting on the internet. I might not stay anonymous forever, but thatâs a bit of particular information I wonât share.
What I can share is that, like a third of my canton, I hold dual citizenship. I am both a Swiss citizen and a European Union citizen. I trust European institutions with protecting my interest more than I trust US institutions.
The company flatexDegiro SE is a Societas Europaea, a company registered under European Union corporate law that allows businesses to operate as a single entity across multiple EU and EEA countries using a unified legal framework. It is headquartered in Frankfurt am Main and primarily supervised by BaFin and Deutsche Bundesbank, while the Dutch branch is also supervised by the Dutch Central Bank and the AFM. You can compare with IBKRâs T&Cs - have fun!
It shouldnât, and your 20-year projection makes it quite misleading. You are not comparing apples to apples. As others have mentioned, the outperformance is most likely due to the small-cap difference. If you picked another small period in the past (preferably between 2000â2010), you would get the opposite result.
Theoretically, owning the whole market (VT) will give you better results than part of it (e.g., WEBG) in the long term.
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