Yeah I invested in stocks big time last year - cant complain about my returns 
It is up to you. If you really need a life insurance, well, look and ask for the alternatives at PAX.
My life insurance was fixed until 2047!!! This means: every year in each month at least a 100 chf payment for 28 years more… OMG!!! And the return of the product was miserable. (Oh ok, they insured me a “technical return” about 0,1%… LOL!
I wanted definitely stop this story. I was there before to loose around 8-9k CHF, but luckily ended up with a happy end.
I’m free, and started in November 2018 with VIAC. Till now about 10-11% return. (But I’ll keep to pay the maximum, and invest into a global 100 strategy)
My colleague told me that for selling a life insurance to a young person the insurance company pays the salesman around 10-15kCHF. I suppose this scam will not disappear soon…
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Hi All,
Another case with life insurance/3a. This time with Axa via PostFinance. We even have troubles figuring out what product my girlfriend bought back in 2011. I don’t even talk about getting to know all the financial details.
All attempt to get info/help ends up with some inadequate answers.
Interesting/scary thing is they claim that contract can’t be canceled, apart retirement/self-employment/buying house. Any ideas is that even possible? One way ticket without option to cancel/buy back?
Cheers.
I seriously doubt that the contract cannot be canceled. @Mr.Paprika had also a contract with Axa and managed to get out of it.
The sales guy responsible for your contract has to tell you:
- what is the product you bought (there should be at least a termsheet/a contract saying how the product works). If there is no contract, there is no product and you can stop paying.
- what is the current state of the product, and yes, that includes where goes the money (which part is savings, which part is risk insuring)
If the guy does not comply, tell him that you will bring this to your legal advisor (which you will need anyway at some point if Axa does not comply, and given the amounts at stake).
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They are probably talking about the 3a part there, which is indeed bound until you do any of those things. But if you don’t like AXA they still have to let you transfer your 3a money to another 3a provider.
The life insurance part you should be able to just cancel, even if you loose some money when you do that. But it’s probably still worth it. If you need a live insurance because e.g. you have little children, just pay for the insurance without any saving parts.
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Hi there,
Any experiences with PAX?
When I arrived in Switzerland 5 years ago seemed advice from a “tax advisor” to make sure I was making everything right. He not only adviced me wrongly and ended up paying an extra 2kCHF taxes on that year, he also sold me a 3a Life insurance policy. I want out.
I accepted because they guaranteed an amount at retirement that was higher than what a 3a bank account would give me. And I was risk averse.
It’s not clear how much I’m contributing to retirement and how much to life insurance. It’s not clear how much I have or what penalties I have if I get out.
Of course they’re ignoring my emails.
Oh btw I have ever since filed my taxes myself. Just trying to optimize the last part: claiming withheld taxes from dividend-paying stocks from European countries (apart from DA-1).
Thanks guys!
They are obliged to tell you and are likely going to do so if you just threaten with your legal advisor. If they still dont tell you, you better cancel asap
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Thanks! I want to cancel anyway, but first I need someone to get back to me. Then, unless the penalties are outrageous (in which case I might wait for a few years) I will cancel right away and move everything to VIAC or even PF 75.
I will insist after Easter and will call as well. So happy Easter everyone!
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Ok, so I can report back.
I’ve got an answer from PAX. They’re telling me:
- They guarantee at least CHF 303’686.00 on 01.12.2053
- Out of the 6768 annual payment, 5998.15 go to savings and 769.85 go to risk
- Buy-back value on 01.04.2019 is CHF 22’570
- If I cancel, they will wire the buy-back value to the new institution
To give you some context:
- I have paid 6739 in 2014, and 6768 2015 through 2018
- The above points means that I will lose 11k in the process of cancelling
- I have calculated an equivalent interest rate (assuming whole payment goes to savings, and that the payments are 6768 until the end - I know it’s not true) of 0.69%
It is this interest rate that is well above what 3a savings accounts offer nowadays that made me sign. Old me.
The interest rate is 1.25% on the accumulated capital (savings) but who needs a life insurance when I have no people depending on me.
Now, I want to reply asking them about what is the buy-back value later in the year and what is the latest date in 2019 that I can ask to cancel this policy on without incurring in any penalty. Is there anything else I should ask them in your opinion?
Also, what is your opinion on putting 25k worth of 3a (so basically all I could get today + 3k in 2019) in a PF 75 3a? And then start building my VIAC portfolio? Or you would go full VIAC?
Thanks, mustachians!
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Just a side note with such projections: The big question mark is what you will be able to purchase with CHF 304K in 2053. If the prices end up catching up with the money creation that has already happened since 2008 (chart here), this will be the price of the equivalent of a high-end FIAT 500 of today.
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Indeed. I definitely want to cancel this insurance policy. I’m just trying to optimize the process.
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one more motivation to cancel and set it up better:
if you had, instead of once those 300k 5 times the exact same contract on 60k, your tax load on recieving the money in 2053 would be 5x 2’239 = 14’525 vs. 29’561 (married Lausanne tariff). So even if you canceled this policy and right away signed the same sh*** abit in 5 chunks, you’d be ahead of the current projected losses.
CS calculator
@PF & viac: thats a matter of taste and chioce. i’d be full in for 5 viac accounts, but that doesnt mean you should do the same
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btw: two negatives about viac: their fx rate sucks big time (2 * 0.75% ish). so if you plan to withdraw the money soon-ish that’s a problem. also, they have hidden spreads which you have to pay - check out their CHF bonds (like 0.3%) - most others are less than 0.1% though - but they are not zero as they falsely promise!!
pf 75 is still more expensive long term, absolutely, but as a shortterm in/out it works as there are zero commissions (if you neglect the Single-Swinging-Price effect)
I’m sending my cancellation e-mail as we speak. Thanks for the eye opening!
Very interesting fact! Is there a document where they explain all the fees? I couldn’t find one. PF 75 was easier to find.
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That’s a bad way to think about it. sunk cost fallacy. You are where you are now and can’t change the past. Focus on where you want to end up instead.
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- they have an faq with parts of the info like fx fee.
- and their strategy page points to CS factsheets which has spreads/TER etc,
- eg the CSIF CH Bonds AAA-AA factsheet: says 0.35% spread.
- Emerging bond has TER of 0.0840% and 0.5% spread!!!
- WorldExCh hedged has 0.16% spread and 0.04% TER
- CH Real Estate has 0.1% spread and 0.84% TER!!!
- Europe Real Estate has 0.31% spread and 0.01% TER
mostly TER and spread are small, but definitely not for all! and they are not very open about this “detail”…
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Funny thing though, Vaud is against this and only allows you to split it in two, Neuchâtel even worse only allows one retrieval…
Edit : found it here, maybe it changed since then.
Same happened with me…
You can read and find my story here:
After a long reclaim process I could finally end my contract with zero loss. I have fingers crossed for you 
Have a nice weekend
Hi there!
I’m in the process of cancelling my insurance (I also posted on that thread).
Could you please share any tips? How have you avoided any losses?
Thanks!