Thanks @cray for the advice. Yes, I am sticking to my position and will not let up.
Will update this thread as soon as I have any further news.
Good for you, it took me years to figure that out!
But honestly, even if you would need a life insurance, take a simple risk policy that costs you a few Francs a month and invest your 3a in Viac. That cuts out all the cost of a (capital) insurance product that are horrendous. Any (honest) insurance broker will tell you that those 3a insurance contracts are highly paid in terms of commission for him.
Cheers
Gondolin
P.S.: Who pays the commission ? Yes, you.
The same here, my bad. I was curious, excited about the 3rd pillar option, and I ended up in AXA’s trap, in a bounded life insurance policy till 2047 YAY 
My story:
Started my payments with 2016.
2016 → 6786 CHF
2017 → 6786 CHF
2018 → 5376 CHF
I just recently reduced my monthly pay to 100 CHF (still 1200 CHF in a year 
)
I just made a calculation, and today I have a cash-in value (or surrender value) of 8018 CHF (plus 86 CHF bonus surrender value)
So it would be effectively for me a loss about 10844 CHF (minus the tax benefit about 2600 CHF for 2016 & 2017, and probably around 900 CHF for 2018). I only got the 1300 CHF tax benefit from 2016 till now, 2017 was requested.
I tried to figure out what to do, and if there is a “optimal solution” to minimize my losses… I got the same hint from two independent insurance guys, to pay ongoing with my minimum (100 CHF), and let it keep as it is.
I don’t know… There are still too many questions in my mind. I guess the tax office will call back the already paid tax benefits → much bigger loss!)
I started immediately with VIAC, and put the 5586 CHF difference (1200 CHF to the AXA life.ins.) to 97% ETF based Global 100 strategy.
I’m happy to hear your hints, tipps, ideas what to do in this trap to be “free” again 
That’s unlikely. at least they never called me when I cancelled my life insurance contract.
At the end of the day, the decision is simple : there are 29 years until 2047, during which you will put in 100 CHF each month, for a total of 34’800 CHF. In total you will have contributed 34’800 + 6’786 + 6’786 + 5’376 =
53’748.
Then calculate how much your contract will be worth in 2047 and look at the difference. If it is more than 10’844, cancel everything.
Don’t forget the opportunity cost of putting these 34’800 CHF into something that is losing money.
If instead you invest each year 1’200 CHF at 7% yield (like a low-fees ETF for instance), you’ll get 113’392 CHF at the end of the 29 years. if this money stays in the life insurance, you will have… less than the 34’800 contributed. That should convince you to stop everything 
4 Likes
Hi Julianek,
thanks for the clear hint, this is clear enough to stop immediately paying in it. I’m more conservative, and I’m calculating with a lower yield about 3-4%, but the difference is still big! I didn’t calculated with the contributed “bonus value” of the insurance, but I’d better NOT to calculate with an optimistic scenario 
Thanks anyway!
Mr.P
Hi Together,
UPDATE in this case:
I’ve contacted Axa 4 times in the last 1,5 months. I described clearly and detailed the case from my view, and claimed the consulting. I mentioned at least two times, what I told the insurance broker: “I don’t want to start with a life insurance”.
Finally I got the official answer via post. After an agreement between the insurance broker and Axa the solution is to end up the contract, and refund my already paid premiums in full. For the years 2016 & 2017 they will transfer 100% of my premiums to an existing 3a pillar account (VIAC), and my payments for this year 2018 will pay out 100% back to my bank account.
I still can’t beleive it. I suggest you not to accept always the first option and answer of an insurance company, and suggest also not to give up!
But first of all Don’t stick your 3rd pillar to a life insurance! NEVER! I still beleive this is a legal scam.
Mr.P
6 Likes
This is something completely different, but one time I requested an offer for insurance by the same company and never followed up because I found a better deal. A month later, the responsible broker for the insurance offer changed it to a contract. When I asked him, he claimed that I signed up for the insurance online. When I stated that I did not, he just said “well, online contracts don’t require a signature. And you clicked on something, otherwise I would not have had the contract on my desk.” But what he had lying around was a contract offer (german: Offerte). I have no idea how such a person can be a representative for a big insurance company like the one you mentioned.
Luckily I managed to talk to a smart technician at that company and he was able to determine, that I never “clicked” on anything else other than the request for the offer. Needless to say, I won’t be dealing with them ever again. So, I understand your frustration. Some brokers are way too aggressive.
2 Likes
Hi, so glad I just read this! I am currently also looking at all the insurances I have now.
I also got a 3a Pillar / life insurance 5 years ago from PAX for which I also pay CHF 3020/year. (I haven’t paid this year yet.)
Now, I am wondering which is the better option:
- continue to pay - I have a family and do have people depending on me
- cancel it and lose most of the money I paid (I heard the costs are high) or
- detain (sistieren) not to take the money out, but not continue to pay.
I asked PAX for a call back so that they can give me the real numbers of what each option would cost. Looking forward to hearing from you all!
Thanks and cheers,
Carina
I have my life insurance with PAX, but it is not 3a, just plain insurance. As a matter of fact, it was one of the best offers on the market and I’m happy with the premiums I’m paying (~400 CHF/year for 500k insurance)
If you want to keep life insurance, try to find out if you can get out of the 3a part and convert to insurance only.
I doubt it … they are running a legal scam with 3a “life insurance” and they know it.
I have risk insurance as well and its surprisingly hard to find. Everyone wants to sell you those 3a money traps.
But I also have a bad investment to share: I invested in gold in 2009 and basically I got me nowhere. I missed out on one of the best bull markets ever due to me thinking it was a “safe” investment and surely would rise with inflation.
Also I invested in Easyjet right after brexit and then it dropped further. I sold when I broke even on the investment again which cost me 30% return over the next months. I learned from this that sometimes you just have to be patient with your investments. I made the right decision then the wrong one …
3 Likes
So now you’ll sell the gold and buy stocks ?
Yeah I invested in stocks big time last year - cant complain about my returns
It is up to you. If you really need a life insurance, well, look and ask for the alternatives at PAX.
My life insurance was fixed until 2047!!! This means: every year in each month at least a 100 chf payment for 28 years more… OMG!!! And the return of the product was miserable. (Oh ok, they insured me a “technical return” about 0,1%… LOL!
I wanted definitely stop this story. I was there before to loose around 8-9k CHF, but luckily ended up with a happy end.
I’m free, and started in November 2018 with VIAC. Till now about 10-11% return. (But I’ll keep to pay the maximum, and invest into a global 100 strategy)
My colleague told me that for selling a life insurance to a young person the insurance company pays the salesman around 10-15kCHF. I suppose this scam will not disappear soon…
5 Likes
Hi All,
Another case with life insurance/3a. This time with Axa via PostFinance. We even have troubles figuring out what product my girlfriend bought back in 2011. I don’t even talk about getting to know all the financial details.
All attempt to get info/help ends up with some inadequate answers.
Interesting/scary thing is they claim that contract can’t be canceled, apart retirement/self-employment/buying house. Any ideas is that even possible? One way ticket without option to cancel/buy back?
Cheers.
I seriously doubt that the contract cannot be canceled. @Mr.Paprika had also a contract with Axa and managed to get out of it.
The sales guy responsible for your contract has to tell you:
- what is the product you bought (there should be at least a termsheet/a contract saying how the product works). If there is no contract, there is no product and you can stop paying.
- what is the current state of the product, and yes, that includes where goes the money (which part is savings, which part is risk insuring)
If the guy does not comply, tell him that you will bring this to your legal advisor (which you will need anyway at some point if Axa does not comply, and given the amounts at stake).
2 Likes
They are probably talking about the 3a part there, which is indeed bound until you do any of those things. But if you don’t like AXA they still have to let you transfer your 3a money to another 3a provider.
The life insurance part you should be able to just cancel, even if you loose some money when you do that. But it’s probably still worth it. If you need a live insurance because e.g. you have little children, just pay for the insurance without any saving parts.
1 Like
Hi there,
Any experiences with PAX?
When I arrived in Switzerland 5 years ago seemed advice from a “tax advisor” to make sure I was making everything right. He not only adviced me wrongly and ended up paying an extra 2kCHF taxes on that year, he also sold me a 3a Life insurance policy. I want out.
I accepted because they guaranteed an amount at retirement that was higher than what a 3a bank account would give me. And I was risk averse.
It’s not clear how much I’m contributing to retirement and how much to life insurance. It’s not clear how much I have or what penalties I have if I get out.
Of course they’re ignoring my emails.
Oh btw I have ever since filed my taxes myself. Just trying to optimize the last part: claiming withheld taxes from dividend-paying stocks from European countries (apart from DA-1).
Thanks guys!
They are obliged to tell you and are likely going to do so if you just threaten with your legal advisor. If they still dont tell you, you better cancel asap
1 Like
Thanks! I want to cancel anyway, but first I need someone to get back to me. Then, unless the penalties are outrageous (in which case I might wait for a few years) I will cancel right away and move everything to VIAC or even PF 75.
I will insist after Easter and will call as well. So happy Easter everyone!
1 Like