Or even if one you take a plane from/to an Swiss airport or get an unexpected force stopover…
I won’t risk it as I have already heard cousin officier take you aside until you pay your debt.
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Any news?
I’m getting the impression that the failure to resolve this to everyone’s satisfaction so far is due to you - and maybe them - not being sure about the law around it.
(Which is understandable. Usually someone else is considered an expert and we can ask and be happy with the answer.)
This is not a matter of opinion. Not yours, not theirs. There is a law. Someone has to read it up.
Quoting myself here:
So if you want certainty, I see three options:
- you read up on the law. Not some recommendations of people on the internet, not some overview. The ACTUAL LAWS.
- you ask a lawyer to explain the laws to you
- you ask the kvg/your insurance company to show you the laws that make them come to their opinion.
This may contain the relevant laws (not a lawyer and I didn’t read it):
832.10 Bundesgesetz über die Krankenversicherung (KVG)
https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1995/1328_1328_1328/de
Available in German, French and Italian.
All the best.
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Thanks for your reply.
I did write again to my insurer & the KVG (who BAG reference as the governmental body responsible for interpreting & applying the law) & included the text & the link to the KVG’s own guidance that nabalzbhf found & posted in this thread.
My insurer replied to the effect that they have aligned with the KVG & I have to submit an exemption request.
The KVG response was: “We need a complete application so that we can check your application with the required documents 2 pillar benefit, deregistration in Switzerland. If the 2nd pillar is not a mandatory component, we will inform you accordingly”
So both parties have ignored my questions (& the KVG’s own guidance). Given that at some point in the future I will have to submit a request for exemption I may as well do this now in an attempt to get this resolved - I can’t see any other way of dealing with this unless I go legal.
Just to clarify:
When I propose you get to know the laws, I’m not in any way suggesting to “go legal” which I take to mean taking the case to court. I mean understand the law to solve your situation.
If you fill out the paperwork, be sure to understand the possible consequences beforehand.
Btw, I’m finding it hard to understand the actual role, competences and powers of the KVG (very unlucky name choice!).
They seem to be financed by the insurance companies?
If you think that the KVGs demand might be incorrect, but aren’t sure about the actual law, or if you want a second competent look on the situation, you might want to contact the Ombudstelle that was mentioned in this thread before. They have an actual expertise in law.
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Moustachienne
Thanks for your reply. By the term “go legal” I mean referring to a lawyer in order to get an opinion on the law.
It’s interesting that you note that the KVG are funded by the insurance companies, which I would see as a direct conflict of interest. How can a body appointed to make decisions on behalf of the Swiss state on matters concerning health insurance be independent if they are funded by the industry?
Good point concerning the Ombudsman - I’ll reach out to them before I file an exemption request.
The KVG owns guidance is really clear and has legal references. I think it’s clear cut, but it probably triggered some kind of process on their side and now they want a formal review.
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A quick update to my case - due to the lack of clear guidance from the KVG, coupled with my poor knowledge of German, I contacted a lawyer in Switzerland to represent me in front of the authorities to obtain exemption from having to continue to take out Swiss health insurance when I relocate from Switzerland.
The lawyer I contacted opinion was this is a clear case and that I should not be compelled to keep insurance in CH when I relocate to another EU country, and the correspondence makes it clear that any confusion sits with the KVG.
After reviewing all correspondence, the lawyer wrote on my behalf to the KVG, stating my case for exemption (the exact same case as I have been making to them for weeks/months). They replied, stating ‘‘Pensioners with a nationality outside the EU-EFTA area are not subject to the European Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons and are therefore no longer required to have insurance in Switzerland after leaving Switzerland. According to your information, you are a citizen of Great Britain and are moving your residence to an EU country. This means that you are no longer required to have insurance in Switzerland.’’
Now, their reply ignores the fact that I am not yet a pensioner, as well as some of the other compounding issues which made my case, at least before the lawyer got involved, not so straightforward, and uses another point (me being a UK citizen) as justification for issuing the exemption (which incidentally I cannot find as a reason in their guidance notes).
Anyway, the important point is that I managed to get what I wanted, and in my opinion engaging a lawyer was definitely worthwhile, was not expensive, forced the KVG to stop issuing contradictory responses to my requests, and most importantly resulted in them issuing the exemption that I wanted, and at the same time potentially saved me thousands of Euros in health insurance fees.
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thanks for the update.
So citizenship is a criteria which doesn’t really make sense in their reply as it should be where you are moving to? Just to clarify you are a UK citizen moving to another EU country (so not back to the UK) is that right?
Yes you are correct on both points.
That is quite strange, I also thought it was based on where you’re moving to.
How would that even work for EU/UK dual citizens? Can I be an UK citizen for the purpose of not requiring the insurance, while being an EU citizen for the purpose of actually moving to another EU country? Their answer only creates more questions imo
IMO their answer is non sensical and they just wanted to save face.
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Agreed. I guess at least it shows consistency on their side, since right from the outset their replies have often been nonsensical.
That is what the law says, although as you see in the thread the KVG interpret the law in whatever way they feel like, often resulting in different statements from different employees.
Hi there
I am around 40 and I am planning to soon leave CH and work as self-employed few years (in an EU country) and then go on FIRE (live off dividends and close my self employment activity) hopefully next year or two. I heard that it is possible in few EU countries, to get full 2nd pillar payout if you don’t work there anymore, before retirement age.
The only doubt I have is: after I receive the full 2nd pillar payout, do I have to re-start paying medical insurance in CH even if I don’t live there anymore?! Said in other words, in case I receive full 2nd pillar payout around 42, would I be considered “Rentner” / Pensioner and therefore will have no pay medical insurance in Switzerland? or as I understood such obligation is only for proper pensioner that reached Swiss retirement age (65 now I guess)?
Thanks in advance
Welcome to the community. We have discussed the topics in different threads’
https://forum.mustachianpost.com/search?q=Leaving%20Switzerland%20pillar
You should read them
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Thanks
I have very similar doubt! but what you write on early withdrawal contradicts what is written on their site: KVG pensioner | Gemeinsame Einrichtung KVG
"Pensioners are subject to health insurance of the state from which they receive their pension. In Switzerland, pensions are considered to be (statutory) benefits of the old age and survivors’ insurance (AHV), disability insurance (IV), military insurance (MV), accident insurance (UV) and occupational benefits (BV, pension fund). In the area of occupational benefits, this also applies if benefits were drawn in capitalized form and the regular retirement age stipulated in the regulations is reached. Benefits drawn from a private provision, for example from a life insurance, do not qualify as pensions.
Maybe to make things simpler (less rare case) if I am 40 and move to EU country, I buy my first property and I withdraw all my BVG, In this case I will not have to pay medical insurance in CH, that would be absurd. As I read in Compulsory insurance Switzerland | Gemeinsame Einrichtung KVG in is just for BVG payment made to people already in retirement age, I guess 65 for men in CH now? Anyone that was in this situation?
I agree, they contradict themselves each time I write to them
Maybe you should be more convincing and starting involving (CCing) in the conversation / emails also the CH Ombudsman, and the EU Ombudsman, they would maybe understand that you are not joking. There are bilateral agreements between CH and EU and healthcare it is serious stuff that should not be so easily interpreted by CH (private and public institutions) at their own advantage to keep you paying …
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