Mustachian terms Legal Insurance in Switzerland

Banks, Insurances & Third Pillar
42

I’ve had legal insurance for more than 5 years now. My experience is that it depends largely on who you’re dealing with at the company whether or not they’re going to take on your case, and, more importantly, how much effort they’re willing to put into it. So my experience has been rather negative, it’s kind of an arbitrary treatment you receive.

Also, my impression is that employees are suffering from high case loads, so not much incentive to put too much energy into single cases.

I still very much like the idea of legal insurance due to potentially high legal costs, but the way it’s implemented by insurance companies is truly lacking. Actually, I’m probably going to cancel my insurance this year, unless a new legal insurance model emerges, truly serving customers. So thanks for bringing up the topic :smile:

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43

My father, who was a lawyer, recommanded the TCS legal insurance for the quality of their services over the others.

My own experience with Dextra (took the policy through a friend, very unmustachian thing to do but it’s satisfactory enough for now) is that one should really consider it as an insurance, as in, they’ll help to try to mitigate the negative impact legal threats can have on you, but winning the actual case is only a concern if/when it is a required condition to meet the target above.

I consider it worth it if you can’t self-insure. I’d rather self-insure if I could and had some basic understanding of how the legal system works and what are the first steps involved if/when something bad occurs as that gives more leeway on how to handle the cases.

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44

Another thing you may consider: become a member of Schweizer Angestellte; they provide legal advice themselves, mostly on job-related questions, and members get a rebate on the COOP Rechschutz. I’m a member for several years, but never used these services, so I cannot comment on their efficiency. There are obviously other reasons to want (or not want) being a member of such a union :wink:

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45

Makes choosing not easier. Most tests came to the conclusion that Dextra, TCS and Protekta are the best. I’ll have to look into it.

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46

NZZ recently brought up the subject of legal insurances and I had not thought of quite some of the points they are discussing:

I was thinking about getting one but I still haven’t done so

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47

I also heard that legal insurance could be helpful to cover 2 things (work related and traffic). Does anyone have an insurance specifically tailored to those risks? Which company and how much

48

Not using one but consider to get one for cycling.

One of my old colleagues used his 3 times (work related issues on holidays+ something else I can’t remember).
After 2 years, he got discharged from the insurance and they did not want to cover him anymore.
He was the kind of guy that complain all the time so I wouldn’t have him as a customer either :grimacing:

49

I have the standard legal insurance from AXA (around CHF 250 per year), in case of a future dispute with landlord or employer. The negative point is that it does not cover tax related disputes. Read the terms and conditions!

50

i took a look at one insurance offering and it specifically excluded landlord/tenant type disputes and also divorce/marital disputes.

51

As far as I know AXA are one of the worst in terms of price/offer. Have a look at Protekta or even coop Rechtsschutz is better…

52

So as to not go off topic on this thread is there a good thread on the Mustachian Insurances to have? I know it depends on one’s situation but maybe there’s a good thread already going through which ones are usually a must and which ones we should get depending on the situation.

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53

What is the reasonable coverage?

From the article posted above

Laut Mathis gibt es aber in den wenigsten Fällen einen Rechtsfall mit Kosten von über 200 000 Franken. «Deshalb reicht eine Versicherungssumme von 250 000 bis 300 000 Franken meist völlig aus.»

Can anyone, ideally with a professional relationship to this topic, comment on this?

@Yanikuza ?

54

Small disclaimer:

I only worked as a lawyer (trainee lawyer more precisely) for a year in a law firm and 6 months in a civil court. I have also seen disputes regarding landlord litigation. During my internship I was mainly involved in cases of divorce and petty crime, because the law firm where I did my internship was only specialized in these areas. Currently, I have just obtained my lawyer’s license, but I work as a lawyer for the Swiss Government

My opinion on the NZZ article:

I largely agree with what has been published. Legal insurance can be useful for the middle class depending on the area of law that is covered. I would say that legal insurance in road traffic matters is what I would advise the most given the high probability of having a road traffic litigation.

For other areas of law such as divorce, problems related to inheritance, real estate, business contracts, these insurances generally do not cover these issues, and you will need to contact a lawyer.

Good to know: legal costs can be expensive, as can those of the lawyer. For example, if you wish to go to court for a disputed value of 200,000 CHF, you will have to, in Geneva (e.g.), pay 10% of the amount to “open” the procedure, i.e. 20 '000 CHF. These fees only allow the judge to read your request. As for the lawyer, in Geneva his hourly rate is on average 450 CHF. If he spends more than 50 hours on your case, that’s already 22,500 CHF in lawyer costs (not including fees and other miscellaneous matters).

Now, specifically on the fact that coverage of 300,000 CHF is sufficient, I agree, I would even say that it is too much according to my poor experience. But road traffic disputes can quickly become expensive depending on the accident. If there has been bodily harm, it can escalate very quickly.

But, I will say that it is rare to have to be covered for this amount.

The usefulness of legal insurance for me is the fact that it allows, at a lower cost, to have legal advice on a problem that could arise to avoid a potential conflict. E.g. : you do not agree with the increase in your rent and you are wondering what to do? Having legal advice from your insurance (provided that this issue is covered) can convince you that this increase is legitimate and thus avoid having to go to court and owe rent arrears with significant compensation to be paid (and lose 2 to 3 years of your life unnecessarily).

Indeed, we rarely talk about it, but what is difficult in a trial is not only the financial part, but also the health one! A legal dispute is exhausting for the litigant… We quickly become tired, stressed, depressed, weak. This is not necessarily the case for the lawyer who is used to it and who knows more or less your chances of success.

If you take a legal insurance, you should see it more as a costless legal advisor who can give you advice for resolving a future conflict or help you to finalize a deal. Often, your legal advice will be less expensive than if you ask the same thing from a lawyer. Although, there is “free” legal advisor that can give you advice for free or at a lower cost (between 50 and 100 francs for a 30-60 min consultation). Where I’ve worked we give costless advice in labor and divorce matter for 100 CHF.

In the end, a maximum coverage of 300,000 CHF seems OK to me (maybe even too much). But what you especially need to see is what your future insurer covers and the areas in which you want to be covered because you think problems could arise.

Tell yourself that everything that concerns tax, family, inheritance and contract issues will not be covered (very often).

This is only my opinion as a young “lawyer” and based on my limited experience.

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55

For car stuff you always have Autohaftpflicht, when would that not be enough? You hit another car in accident, they get injured, that would be already covered by insurance, no?

56

Each coverage is different, so it’s important to analyse the contract.
For exemple, Dextra will cover in their XL package family, inheritance and fiscal law, but only 10k!
It’s quite likely that this type of cases will cost more than 10k. At the end the business model for an insurance is to get more premiums than expenses.

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57

Yep. Nothing to add here :slight_smile:

Working as a lawyer with these kind of insurance should be interesant, I don’t know if I would enjoy it, but it will for sure give a shit lot of experience. I’ll let you know if I worked for one them one day :stuck_out_tongue:

58

Yes, I wonder if you are employed directly by the legal insurance as a lawyer or jurist (not working as an external lawyer) at which point, the management is pressuring you not to work to much on a case to reduce cost. And maybe to reach an agreement with the other party than going to court.

59

hello!
I wanted to know if the swiss legal insurances are also valid in Europe. I have a family house in Spain that is rented out via an agency. How can I protect myself via a legal insurance incase of a dispute with an agency. I don’t have any obligations to the tenants because this agency would be responsible for any greviences from the tenants directly.

thanks a lot!

60

did you already check the AVB of your prefered provider?

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61

Often it’s still valid abroad but to a reduced extent (lower max. payment per case).

But each provider has different offers so there is no single answer.