Alright, I’m in. I’ve created two accounts, one will be invested in the Extreme 95 Index fund without failure, the other will be experiments with moving averages. The exact same amount of money will be transferred to the two accounts on the same dates for comparison purposes.
Part of the reasons I’ve registered is that Frankly. seems like a good place for this kind of play:
I can get in and out of the market on not too long a delay (apparently 4-6 days);
Since it’s a 3A, I’m betting I don’t risk getting classified as a professional investor if I hold to my assets for less than 6 months, meaning I can get in and out whenever my model requires it without worrying about tax implications;
I trust them to stay there for the 30 years that should lead me to normal retirement age;
Even if I screw up, half of my assets will be blindly following an index. The other half will at least have provided me with tax reductions and entertainment value;
So I’m curious and wanted to try this experiment. I’ll keep you posted. What I can say so far is that their ID scan module is reaaaaaally shit.
Disclaimer: even though we are on the MP forum, this is definitively not a mustachian way of “investing”. Some would not classify it as investing at all and I am considering part of the money I’ll be putting in the “moving averages” account as entertainment rather than investment.
Moving averages with indices/ETFs? That’s a bit far fetched IMO.
The volatility (and agility) you want to utilize is crippled down by diversification, I don’t think it would be a big money maker.
But for entertainment - sure, go ahead!
@yakari
I’ve been having fun with spreadsheets trying to find ways that have a chance of success of reducing the impact of market downturns while still allowing to capture most of the gains. Using moving averages (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/movingaverage.asp) to indicate when to get out and, most importantly, when to get in the market seems to be one way to do it. Frankly. seems to be providing me acceptable means to put my strategies in practice so I’m willing to put some money on the table to check how my theories fare.
The strategy itself and following the results should be the topic of a thread of their own that I’ll probably start before the end of the year. There’s no fun in trying to beat the market (with play money) if there’s no external accountability behind my choices.
@dbu
ETFs used to make little sense to me: they’re basically trading our voting rights in a company for diversification and we have to pay a fee for it. I don’t think I need that much diversification and I have fun browsing indexes composition for the core stocks that make them and add them to my own strategy. Since it’s so hard to value them accurately (you’d need to delve deep into all the companies that they own), I find that they are the best suited for a graphical rather than a valuation approach, hence, moving averages. To me, if there ever is a candidate for using them, it’s ETFs.
I’m not saying trying to time the market, no matter the mean, is a smart play by any means but I’m very interested in strategies that allow for asset protection in downturns (building my own all weather portfolio is my other investment hobby) and am willing to put some money on the table in order to acquire some experience in that field.
First good surprise: I’ve opened my accounts on Friday, the money left my Raiffeisen account this morning, it’s not 8 am and it’s already on my accounts. You can color me impressed.
Now to see how quickly it’s going to be invested and what the fees will be.
Alright, The transfer order was put on Friday, for Tuesday. My bank released the money early morning on Tuesday. Frankly. received it early morning on Tuesday (0 day delay). The money was invested today, so a 3 days delay.
I’ve transfered CHF 500.
CHF 0.11 have remained on the 3A account.
CHF 499.42 have been invested (99.9%)
The buy in fees in the Extreme 95 Index fund were CHF 0.47 (0.094%, which is less than the 0.1% displayed on the factsheet).
My guess is that investing in an active fund would have taken 2 days but I won’t try it because these parameters… are acceptable.
This is a happy panda.
Edit: edited the invested amount and fees to display them more accurately.
Has anybody taken advantage of their 50 CHF voucher? How does that work exactly? It’s a voucher for their fees, but only for the first transaction (where I guess you will struggle to ever use much of that) or the first 50 CHF of all future transactions or something else entirely?
EDIT:
In case anybody else is interested in the voucher: You don’t have to pay the first 50 CHF on fees, if you jump through all the hoops and for as long as the voucher is valid. The last part can be tricky: The first code they sent me was valid until 31.12.2020, i.e. for another 2 weeks, which obviously was kind of a joke.
When I pointed that out, they sent me another, valid until the end of next year. Much better.
the “all-in” fees have been deducted today. They’re taken out of the cash part (which is very minimal with the autoinvest setting on) so I am now leveraged (albeit for a very small amount), with CHF -0.14 on each of my 3 accounts.
I’ve opened the 3 accounts at the same time, have transfered the money at the same date, all 3 were on autoinvest, so invested at the same time. The “all-in” fees are calculated on an average of the value of the account over a time period. That period is 34 days for two of my accounts and 35 days for the third. The good news is that that period was longer than the time I’ve held these accounts, so the average (which isn’t the same for the 35 days account and the two 34 ones) is lower than the actual average value of my accounts since their opening. This shouldn’t apply for the future occurences since the accounts are already existing at the start of the accounting period.
All three accounts have the same CHF 0.20 “all-in” fee. It’s displayed as 0.47% of CHF 459.60 (or CHF 446.46) (average wealth), which would be CHF 2.16 or CHF 2.09. I’m guessing the 0.47% is annualized and the 0.20 fee is rounded, so it’d make sense, but that’s still pretty opaque…
while the 0.47% “all-in” fee displayed for the calculation is the correct one, there’s still a small message below displaying the fee as 0.48%. It’s not major at all but shows that the app is not totally updated when the fees evolve.
the shares class they’re linking to for “historical performances” are the V class while the shares that have actually been bought on my accounts are the N class, which are the target of the “view Extreme 95 Index details” link, which is accurate (as ascertained by the price and number of shares bought on the transactions).
On the plus side, we’re nearing the 0.46% threshold, so the fees should go down in the future.
All in all, easy to use but very, very, very opaque.
I agree. We don’t know the buy/sell fees. We don’t know the forex fees. The fund is hedged which has an impact of around 1% less performance each year.
I think you mixed up the outstanding shares with the total market capitalisation. It looks like it is 100x more at a share price of 108 = CHF 18m (which is still not very much for a fund).
That’s possible. I recall looking at the share class volume, which now stands at 18.16M, which is a bit more reassuring. I guess it will keep going up in the future, for as long as the share value goes up, at least.
Hi all, my gf has an account with ZKB so I thought it would be maybe somewhat easier/logical for her to create an account with Frankly. In hindsight, Frankly does not really seem to be integrated with the rest of ZKB experience. She has never had a 3a account till now. Of course I want her to go with 95 Extreme as she currently invests 0% of her savings.
I would like to approximate the cost of hedging. Any ideas of how much of the entire portfolio is hedged and how big of an annual trailing loss vs unhedged should we see? I know, if exchange rates fluctuate, we can either win or lose on hedging, but I’m assuming a scenario where CHF-USD exchange rate stays the same.
I disagree. Is there a difference between a fluctuating exchange rate and a fixed one if in the end the fluctuating one comes back to the starting point? It’s hedging, it’s a bet. You win or lose 50% of the time, in the long term you’re just bleeding fees. I want to ignore the potential gains-losses due to the bet, and only count the cost of hedging.
If we define the word “fluctuating” as an equivalent of tossing a coin with a 50% chance ; It is not fluctuating around today’s rate of exchange. It is fluctuating around the loss that the USD is supposed to have. The cost of hedging is the expected loss on your USDs in CHF.
The probability of the rate being the same as today’s rate is the same probability as the USD losing value twice faster than expected.
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