Discussing a marriage contract with your partner, recipe for disaster?

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64

I imagine that this is a very sensible topic for you, and I don’t want to be rude.

But, doesn’t this more or less align with what I was saying before?
He had to renounce to buy something (mostly luxury items or things not strictly necessary from what you say), but it doesn’t seem that his life fundamentally changed after the divorce.
A part, of course, not sharing his life with his family. It seems from what you say that that was the biggest problem in his life, and that does not change if you decide or not to marry.

Am I wrong? Did he then regret his decision and realized the limiting factor in his late years of his life was money?

65

tldr; just read the OP

IMHO

that is a clash of values^^
I remember my parents on purpose both worked all the time (besides a 3 month baby break on my mom’s side) with the ideal of both staying financially independent of each other. In case ever something terrible happens, each could just support themselves on their own. It kept my mom in her fulfilling job for a lifetime, the complete opposite of becoming dependent on her spouse. This also made sure that financial aspects never played a role in their relationship, which was carried solely by their emotional bond.

For that reason, I am also going for marriage contract (but in my case my partner is full-in, with similar ideals)

I would not think of fair vs. unfair. But talking about that might be tough. However there is no way around getting clarity on this topic. It’s a delicate balance of expecting committment, but also allowing the other’s preferences. But not talking this through until mutual agreement is going to end up in a spicy situation.

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66

Actually my father situation is fine thanks to my grandmother who has a really good pension and real estate portfolio. She made a direct inheritance of my great grandmother house (free of debt) to him. She also supports him financially if needed. Without her, I believe the situation would be way more complicated, and her disappearance is something I fear a lot because there would be no “back up” to clean any financial issue or what so ever.

Am I wrong? Did he then regret his decision and realized the limiting factor in his late years of his life was money?

I don’t think he has any regret of getting divorced as the relationship was over. And that’s actually for me the key point. People change with time, both were meant to each others when they got married, but they evolved in a different direction after some time. He faulted, that’s all his fault for this divorce, 100%. But actually, what if he waited a bit before going elsewhere, and divorced before he went somewhere else? Whose fault would it be? Would the financial impact be different? I don’t think so. I believe it would neither be my mother or my father fault, but just a natural move. I don’t know the intimate details of their relations but what I can see from my own experience is that people change, needs and expectation evolve over the years, and sometimes it’s no one fault that the relationship ends, but yet my father would be the one to carry the financial burden.

So I‘m all in, I even pay her 3rd pillar and others every year to fill her pensions gaps and for me this committment is the way of achieving much more but together. I wouldn‘t be today where I am without her.

I believe you can do that because of your comfortable salary, which from what you shared is way above average. You earn basically two people annual salaries. Would you do it if your salary suddenly dropped to 100k a year?

In my opinion, if I marry with someone who has a lower background and salary, it’s not my fault, and I shouldn’t compensate for it. If I force my partner to stop working to raise kids, or have free time, then I would have to compensate for it should we split. Otherwise, if she decides unilaterly to do so even though there is a way to raise our kids properly, she has to think about the impact of it and should be able to sustain it.

If I had kids, I would for sure give the best to them, but woudln’t compensate the situation of my ex-partner if I wasn’t the reason for any decrease of her financial earnings.

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67

That’s indeed what it is and unfortunately lot of issues comes in relationship where both partners are not of same background/education/preferences. And unfortunately time, stress, kids amplify this quite a bit later.

Amen and let’s close the case!
Cortana has full right to ask for marriage contract and it’s bit of red flag that wife is not willing to consider this. Hopefully couch was not hard that night and his rational mind will choose what’s acceptable to him.

In my case income with 2pillar difference is 35%, but we both work 100% atm with my prospects being better. I made decision to forego marriage contract for the sake of marriage, but still can’t get my head around what would happen financially if…

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68

Just to let you guys know, I read all the replies and also private messages. Just didn’t have the time to reply yet. Thanks for making this such a huge thread! A lot of inputs to digest.

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For context: this thread was started by a guy who not only went on record saying he didn’t „know why people who pursue FIRE get even married at all“ and that people „can be together without mariage“ just two years ago - but also (temporarily) separated from his girlfriend (though not split) only a year prior.

Now consider his phrasing in the original post („ marriage is around the corner (…), it made me think more about a marriage contract“), his sense of professional achievement and financial entitlement (literally, without judging on my part: „am I not entitled to a higher net worth even in marriage?)“ and @Cortana’s devotion and time spent on this „Mustachian thing“ (200 hours and 45‘000 posts read on this forum alone).

I can‘t help but conclude that by marrying this girl without a marriage contract he would do something that goes against his personal values and beliefs. And worse, if the marriage indeed goes haywire, let alone has children involved, his gut feeling and his rational thinking - both of which told him to get a marriage contract today - will come back haunting him. Painfully. He’ll know that he knew about his mistake all along, from the very beginning.

Not only is the financial risk to him substantial.
His mental potential of regret will be even bigger.

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70

On the other hand could you think “dry” like that?

  • statistics say probability of divorce is 50%
  • he’s in relationship with same girl for some time, thus fair to assume the girl is marriage material at the moment and therefore there is max 50% probability (I guess he can put his own number) that she will try to screw him in case of divorce.
  • in the end you are left with 25% change of bad outcome only. For everyone to accept the risk.

ps. for the people who ask why to marry if you can live in partnership. I would ask do you celebrate birthday, christmas, hanukkah, divali or whatever. There is just something sacred in marriage like in any other tradition, be it religion or whatever, which separate one day/event/period from another. Irrational? Yes. Makes life more fun? For sure :slight_smile:

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71

An aspect to add to the financial considerations:

By taking care of the kids instead of working your family basically saves on childcare costs, approximately 500 CHF per month and per kid for each weekday in childcare. And this usually until the kiddo is more or less independant, say 10-12 years old.
In Cortana’s situation that means that his partner is bringing a theoretical additionnal “income” of 24’000 CHF if she works 60% with 2 kids (2 days * 2 kids * 500 CHF * 12 months), or 48’000 CHF if she works only 20% (or 60k if she fully stops working). So her financial contribution will be definitely more than 10-20%.
On the other side the stay-at-home parent is not contributing to the second pillar, so this shall be deducted to get a fair picture of the financial contribution of each if you.
What cannot be measured is the fact that having a stay-at-home parent is definitively a career booster for the working parent, as you do not need to worry about household chores, kid beeing sick, waking up during the night during weekdays etc.

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72

Respect for taking the time and dedication to analyze that - the outcome is pretty impressive and from my perspective exectly related to the OPs individual situation.

73

Wouldn’t really bet on this.

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74

Well, I am not sure I understand your comment as I would expect the stay-at-home parent to take care of most of the things I described, at least during the week. If you observed it differently I guess it is a conscious deal between the parents.

Having both worked 100% with demanding careers including few international business trips and staggered working hours, organizing every minute of the day was definitely a challenge when the kids were young. And any unexpected event was a nightmare (kid sick, sudden workload, sleepless nights etc). Having a stay-at-home parent would have definitively been a relief for the other one.

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75

Chipping in as a divorcee. We married after 8 years together, separated after 1 year of marriage, in an amicable way. She did not want my (tiny) half LPP at that time, and although we did not have a pre-marriage discussion about a contract we discussed the financial topic multiple times and our values were aligned. Coincidentally (or maybe not) I was financially illiterate at that time.
I agree that talking about it prior is a must, but I think trying to protect oneself against being “robbed” (exaggerated term of course) is pointless, since marriage is exactly the opposite. Trust and share, that’s it.
It has been mentioned though that a contract can be very useful in case one of you has a business, and even more with associates. Not only in case of divorce but also of death. If you die, your partner has the ownership of your shares by default. This means your former associates just got a new one they did not necessarily want.

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76

This is amazing to hear, because my wife and I went this exact way and I’m glad it worked out in the case of your parents.

What I believe is that it gives both spouses a peace of mind, knowing they could live on their own, if ever needed.
And this inner peace is, in my humble opinion, a very important thing and could well lead to a longer marriage.

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77

Whether she’ll intends to screw him or not, she will (most likely) receive half of the assets accumulated during the course of the marriage. Simply because that is the standard as far as the law is concerned. That is 50% more than he considers fair, as per his original suggestion above, to grant her a third (50%/33%).

:point_right: There is an almost 100% chance that he will feel screwed in case of divorce - compared to what he deems “fair” today. Even if she doesn’t intend to and if they split amicably.

Unless she’d voluntarily give up a part that she would entitled to. Which would be quite the stupid thing to do, as a 60’000 CHF earning nail designer with (possibly) patchy employment history and two children to feed and raise as a single parent (not taking a dig at her there - it’s just mad to claim less half of the assets, as the lesser earner, without a marriage contract).

78

IMHO there’s 0 good reasons to get married if both parties can stay in Switzerland legally. You can have that fat wedding ceremony w/o the legal implications and live happily forever. +1 to everyone that said raising a kid is 100% harder than working 8-10h.

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79

I think it will also depend on your and her culture. For my wife that was a critical step to move forward.
E.g. marriage before kids

80

Already a lot was said about the topic. But my view would be all-in or nothing. If you can’t trust a person to share some bucks, would you still choose her to be the mother of your children?

Please, no offence, but if I were your wife and you’d propose me such, I swear, I would start charging for sexual intercourse and later for childcare for looking after your children. Very soon she would be making more money than you.

Sometimes thinking about the situation in extremes gives us a different perspective…

Good luck with the issue… all the best!

81

There is (external) competition for both services. He can shop around.

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82

Might turn out cheaper in the end to outsource, actually :slight_smile:

83

We are discussing topic that people usually find so normal as breathing or eating.
Work until you go to pension → no. FIRE sooner.
Marry to build a family → ?

Is the second topic so hard to split in pieces? You don’t need to marry to build a family. If you want to, then do it. If not, then don’t. If some rules are too risky, then don’t.
I think the annoying part for Cortana is that they don’t decide what happens if they split, but it’s the government that do that. So instead of marrying write down what you both would do in case of divorce and see if you both agree.
Side note: If kids are involved then forget your rules.