[COFFEE] Child care and support for families

Also i would say that its not per se easier to take care of the children if they have a daycare, you have more things to think about. You come home from work, you still need to shop, maybe make laundry and clean, etc.

Alsowe sould all be grown ups here and know that there is not only one way to archive a goal. We should just give people options and let them do what fits them best.

-My partner wants to have a career, things are not set up in most employers to (realistically) have a long career break then restart, nor to work reduced schedules, without being labelled as “someone who should get the easy jobs because of their kids” (and get lower salary)

-job market in our area is competitive, not many employers look at people seriously after long career breaks

-my wife wants to have the choice to be with me and not be trapped- she can leave anytime if she doesn’t want to be with me anymore

-We were not wealthy enough to afford the luxury of one of us staying home to care for kids

-I also think it is good for my daughters to see the example of their successful mother not reliant on her, our parents were the same

We spend a lot of time with our kids - my view is that it is quality that counts not quantity. I see their upbringing being a lot better than many others with stay at home parents. If I didn’t believe that I would change

Maybe a mod can split into a 2nd thread “should parents use external childcare” and those who want to comment can

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I agree, the point here was mostly that people seem to feel entitled to have kids but don’t want to miss out on career and expect some subsidies for child care. Every life/family decision comes with opportunity cost.

What made you believe that you’re wealthy enough to have kids in the first place then?

Yeah because taking care of a kids full time is harder than most jobs. My wife would confirm that any second.

As you can tell I have limited respect for parents not taking the full responsibility of having kids.

Fine, let’s talk about it.

When you are in a cafe and a waiter brings you coffee, do you count costs of this person’s parents to raise him/her in your tips?

Did you already reimbursement your parents their costs of parenthood? With an interest or not?

no one said that, and i think no one expects “free stuff” just cause they now are parents. It still is expensive.

But you see if for example Barto would have needed to relocate to save more money to finally have kids, this would have costet the economy more, since you lose talent & workforce where its actually needed.

Lets be honest, you still need to make a fair size of moeny to afford childcare, so its not just a free handout from the gov. There needs to be a balance to help the economy to keep the workforce ant skill where its needed, and i think we see different approaches in different countries.

Edit:

Aslo lot to unpack here, like does it make you a better parent if you are 100% around your child? Really? it this how you measure good parenting?
I feel like there is much more in raising a kid than just spend time toghether. But to each their own i guess.

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are you seriously judging me or just trolling?

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But you knew that before, didn’t you? That children require a lot of attention and there is lots of work to do. This sounds like someone who buys a dog and then abandons it at the highway rest stop, when they notice it is too much work. But rather than abandoning it you ask tax payers to come up for your childcare.

I completely get that. But what makes you think that justifies that other people have to pay so that you and your wife can fulfil your career dreams? Wouldn’t it be more just that everyone decides for their own priorities and then lives accordingly including the consequences (pay for all costs incurred, partly stop working, have no child, organise other options, etc.)

If everyone would start to think like that we will inflate our welfare system more and more and eventually pay more and more taxes. If we stop to think like that and be more responsible in regards to costs we impose upon others, we can save a lot of taxes and eventually could lower taxes what would be beneficial for everyone and not just a few.

I just don’t get why other people have to pay so that other people who want too much or all at once can fulfil their dreams. I also don’t ask other people to pay for my dreams.

There is no tipping anymore in Switzerland. The practice was officially abandoned in 1974.

Furthermore, there is no need to reimburse anyone for their children because nobody was asked to have children, nobody was forced to have children. So everyone basically has children based on their own wishes and action and it brings them joy. Action has consequences, also in the form of monetary consequences.

So nobody else can be made liable to pay for it.

Besides, tax payers already pay for public school, that is already a lot of costs put on someone else’s shoulders.

In short: The main issue I have with this is that there is a culture of entitlement where people think they are entitled to have and get whatever they want but if they can’t afford it by themselves, they feel even entitled to get other people’s money to pay for it. I think everyone should pay for their stuff by themselves and also take responsibility and bear consequences of their actions.

Of curse, im not discussing that.
My point is about the argument “why have childern to put them in a daycare”. I wuold say its much harder to have children in daycare than to have a full stay at home dad / mum. So i would say that taking the taxpayers money makes the life of a parent more difficult, not per se easier.

I also would argue that if we did not have the childcare system the employer would create options for the high skilled people. And this would make products and services more expensive.
So now you have just a shift in the price of the childcare, from the tax to the products, you like that more?

Nothing personal against you. Just generic upsetness towards the need for people to have kids at all cost.

I also feel terrible that I for once agree with Patron (which I have blocked).

This is my last post in this thread :slight_smile:

Ok, I will try again to calmly express my point of view.

  1. Any productive adult is a benefit for the whole society. Not only his/her parents.
    Agree?

  2. Therefore, raising children is an activity that is beneficial for the whole society.
    Agree?

  3. Parents are not even getting any profit from parenting. In developed countries, society partially compensate your expenses.

A little support for families is better than

  • segregation of the society (US, Latin America)
  • higher crime level, more police, more jails
  • high medical costs for fixing adults who had troubled childhood

And most importantly, opportunity costs of losing thousands of talents who were not able to develop due to their family situation.

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Yes, much more. Because it’s based on decisions formed by the market based on private autonomy and not imposed upon everyone by the government. In this scenario nobody is forced to do something. No company is forced to provide childcare, but they can if they want. Nobody is forced to work for a specific company. Nobody is forced to have children. Nobody is forced to buy products of a certain company. Everyone is following the non-aggression principle. That’s exactly how I want it. :+1:

In the other scenario there is a lot of force and in the end violence involved. Everyone is forced to pay for someone else’s wishes even if they don’t want. There is no choice for anyone. If you don’t pay, there will be men with guns employed by the government who will come and make you pay. That’s a big difference isn’t it?

I shouldn’t. (feel terrible & block me - you might miss out other stuff where you’d agree with me :wink: ). I know I’m a direct person and this is difficult for some people. But in the end, I’m just saying what many people think but don’t dare to say anymore. You know why? Exactly because they get expelled, shut down, discredited, excluded, etc. Not a good development. I think every adult must be able to deal with opposing opinions even if it’s difficult. I certainly don’t agree with everyone here on the forum and some stuff is really painful for me to read. With some people I agree and feel aligned very well. But I haven’t blocked a single person here nor anywhere else. I don’t want to be such a person who excludes others just because I have another opinion.

I think you are right with your statements but you seem to think that the ultimate goal is to always make what is best for society as a whole and that’s totally wrong IMHO. Why? Because this is your ultimate goal then why stop at childcare? To implement your goal we would have to abandon capitalism, introduce a planned economy, seize everyone’s money and use it for the collective good.

I don’t think the ultimate goal is to maximise wellbeing of society as a whole, I think the ultimate goal is that every individual maximises their own wellbeing, while still respecting others and follow the non-aggression principle and not harm others.

Forcing people to pay for someone else’s wishes with the threat that if you don’t pay it will be enforced at gunpoint by the government, is a form of aggression.

Well, you need to extrapolate where do you see not taking responsibility by bringing kid to krippe/kindergarted, as you are going against model adopted by whole western world.
Otherwise I just smell the cheese … going to foreign country to find wife that you could keep it “locked” home.

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I feel sorry for Lumo, that this thread got so derailed :face_with_hand_over_mouth:
Although I fully disagree what Cheese and Patron are saying, if someone really wants a more subsidized childcare and it’s a deal breaker, there are other countries in Europe (e.g. the Nordics) which provide that. So rather than changing the system, one can just change the game. Switzerland is a great country, so I would think when there’s a shortage of workforce, people from other countries around the world would be willing this fill this gap :slight_smile:

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This is already completely derailed, so I might as well share my opinion.

That said, you keep working and delegated all the responsibility to your wife. Are you still in one of those cantons that vote raising hands and where women only vote since the 90’s?

I think this says it all and there is no point in read your long posts.

I suppose taxes shouldn’t also decrease because you have kids.

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Yeah, good luck paying 60% income tax / social contributions, etc. in Norway for example, and 25% VAT. Socialism comes with a cost.

There is some space between Maoism and Feudalism and I think our society will be able to squeeze in.

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Yes, I just find it a bit inconsistent if you argue that the ultimate goal is the collective good up to some point (usually where one stops profiting from collectivism) and then the argumentation turns in to the direction of favouring the individual good.

Such an argumentation would be flawed and inconsistent, no?

When I hear the words “ultimate goal”, I reach for my gun.

I am for finding a balance.

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I feel you are challenging 2 points

  1. subsidies for childcare - I agree this is debatable and the current system could be a lot better. Just to be clear I have more than covered “the full cost of having them” as I am by far a net tax contributor

  2. Somehow judging me as a bad parent and the implication that (regardless whether I pay for it myself or not) you have limited respect for me having kids “just to put them to childcare asap” that I am “not taking full responsibility for having them” and you think it would be better to do it your way and “have the mom to take care of the kids”.

Let’s just say I don’t agree with your way either.

Again this should be moved to another thread

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I am a bit tired that every discussion starting on a valid personal finances topic often derails into endless drama about politics and people’s personal choice (unrelated to personal finance).

I used to think that I should let people discuss anything and everything on this forum, but the amount of drama makes it actually harder to find the relevant information in the discussion. Especially when we reach a point when people don’t participate to debate, but to put their opinion in the middle, not being prepared to change its mind, and somehow thinking that the other side will change theirs.

It’s hard enough to have accurate financial expertise on this forum, I don’t expect any of you to be an absolute expert on topics as varied as public healthcare, childcare, should-people-have-kids-or-not, taxation policies and what have you.

(If we have the extraordinary chance that one of you is actually an expert in one of those fields, great. If that’s the case, please link your arguments to scientific white-papers).

So from now on, a few guidelines, with examples of the few last heated discussions:

  • I don’t care if you think people should have kids or not, or if mom or dad should automatically leave their job. What’s relevant is how much childcare costs and what the opportunity cost is.
  • Taxation levels are what they are, I don’t expect any of you to have any power to change them in Switzerland, or in EU or in the world (the obvious exception would be a new votation on this exact topic in CH). Therefore I don’t want to hear how socialistic or capitalistic the world should be, or if Ayn Rand is the solution to all world’s problem. This topic always degenerate, here or on thousands of other forums on the Internet.
  • On the other hand, what I’d encourage to discuss on the taxation topic is: given my current situation, and the current taxation levels in CH, what should I do to best meet my personal finance objectives?
  • I don’t care about your opinion about public health policies, mask mandates, vaccination and so on. Over the last two years, public experts have changed their opinion on those topics two or three times, and once again it would be a miracle if we had a virology/immunology/publich health policy expert among us that happens to have studied this exact topic during his whole career. Seeing how much drama and irrelevant content this topic has generated on this forum over the last years, let’s not add more salt to the wound.

I am not sure yet how I will enforce those new rules. But if I see yet another thread where 5% is relevant personal finance information and the rest is endless drama where people spread their personal political agenda, I will start taking measures, including temporary and definitive bans.

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