[COFFEE] Child care and support for families

[monkk]

@MrCheese

As you can tell I have limited respect for parents not taking the full responsibility of having kids.

Well, you need to extrapolate where do you see not taking responsibility by bringing kid to krippe/kindergarted, as you are going against model adopted by whole western world.
Otherwise I just smell the cheese … going to foreign country to find wife that you could keep it “locked” home.

[svenaki]

I feel sorry for Lumo, that this thread got so derailed
Although I fully disagree what Cheese and Patron are saying, if someone really wants a more subsidized childcare and it’s a deal breaker, there are other countries in Europe (e.g. the Nordics) which provide that. So rather than changing the system, one can just change the game. Switzerland is a great country, so I would think when there’s a shortage of workforce, people from other countries around the world would be willing this fill this gap

[Lumo]

This is already completely derailed, so I might as well share my opinion.

@MrCheese

As you can tell I have limited respect for parents not taking the full responsibility of having kids.

That said, you keep working and delegated all the responsibility to your wife. Are you still in one of those cantons that vote raising hands and where women only vote since the 90’s?

@Patron

I think it makes more sense if it is the mother because that’s what mothers do

I think this says it all and there is no point in read your long posts.

I suppose taxes shouldn’t also decrease because you have kids.

[Dr.PI]

@Patron

Why? Because this is your ultimate goal then why stop at childcare? To implement your goal we would have to abandon capitalism, introduce a planned economy, seize everyone’s money and use it for the collective good.

There is some space between Maoism and Feudalism and I think our society will be able to squeeze in.

[Dr.PI]

When I hear the words “ultimate goal”, I reach for my gun.

I am for finding a balance.

[Barto]

@MrCheese

Nothing personal against you. Just generic upsetness towards the need for people

I feel you are challenging 2 points

1. subsidies for childcare - I agree this is debatable and the current system could be a lot better. Just to be clear I have more than covered “the full cost of having them” as I am by far a net tax contributor

2. Somehow judging me as a bad parent and the implication that (regardless whether I pay for it myself or not) you have limited respect for me having kids “just to put them to childcare asap” that I am “not taking full responsibility for having them” and you think it would be better to do it your way and “have the mom to take care of the kids”.

Let’s just say I don’t agree with your way either.

Again this should be moved to another thread

[Julianek]

I am a bit tired that every discussion starting on a valid personal finances topic often derails into endless drama about politics and people’s personal choice (unrelated to personal finance).

I used to think that I should let people discuss anything and everything on this forum, but the amount of drama makes it actually harder to find the relevant information in the discussion. Especially when we reach a point when people don’t participate to debate, but to put their opinion in the middle, not being prepared to change its mind, and somehow thinking that the other side will change theirs.

It’s hard enough to have accurate financial expertise on this forum, I don’t expect any of you to be an absolute expert on topics as varied as public healthcare, childcare, should-people-have-kids-or-not, taxation policies and what have you.

(If we have the extraordinary chance that one of you is actually an expert in one of those fields, great. If that’s the case, please link your arguments to scientific white-papers).

So from now on, a few guidelines, with examples of the few last heated discussions:

• I don’t care if you think people should have kids or not, or if mom or dad should automatically leave their job. What’s relevant is how much childcare costs and what the opportunity cost is.
• Taxation levels are what they are, I don’t expect any of you to have any power to change them in Switzerland, or in EU or in the world (the obvious exception would be a new votation on this exact topic in CH). Therefore I don’t want to hear how socialistic or capitalistic the world should be, or if Ayn Rand is the solution to all world’s problem. This topic always degenerate, here or on thousands of other forums on the Internet.
• On the other hand, what I’d encourage to discuss on the taxation topic is: given my current situation, and the current taxation levels in CH, what should I do to best meet my personal finance objectives?
• I don’t care about your opinion about public health policies, mask mandates, vaccination and so on. Over the last two years, public experts have changed their opinion on those topics two or three times, and once again it would be a miracle if we had a virology/immunology/publich health policy expert among us that happens to have studied this exact topic during his whole career. Seeing how much drama and irrelevant content this topic has generated on this forum over the last years, let’s not add more salt to the wound.

I am not sure yet how I will enforce those new rules. But if I see yet another thread where 5% is relevant personal finance information and the rest is endless drama where people spread their personal political agenda, I will start taking measures, including temporary and definitive bans.