[COFFEE] Child care and support for families

[MrCheese]

@Lumo

what are the best options to get childcare

To have the mom to take care of the kids?

[dbu]

“Best” is a relative term.

[svenaki]

@Patron

@svenaki

Switzerland is in some areas still outdated

I don’t think Switzerland is outdated.

I only said in some areas

@Patron

@svenaki

when it comes to childcare this system is still based on that the mom should stop working or the kids should go to the grandparents, unfortunately.

Yes, why not? If for you a child is just a lifestyle accessoire and first thing you do is giving it to someone else to take care of it, then why you have a child in the first place if career for both parents is more important?

The greatest impertinence is when people then also want to have this external care subsidised by the government. So the tax payers have to pay for your child because you don’t want to take your responsibility to take care of it by yourself.

Sounds very provocative, but I would argue that the return the society would get over the lifetime paid in taxes by those children (and both parents) is more than it would invest in subsidizing Kita for a couple of years.

[Giff]

@Patron

Yes, why not? If for you a child is just a lifestyle accessoire and first thing you do is giving it to someone else to take care of it, then why you have a child in the first place if career for both parents is more important?

What is “outdated” is the fact that, when one parent needs to stay home with the children, that parent is normally the mother. And it couldn’t be otherwise, given that men earn more than women. So, here again is the salary gap issue resurfacing.

[Barto]

@Patron

there is no benefit from pre-school childcare except that it is easier for parents to organise their lives and that they can shift the responsibility for childcare to someone else … pre-school childcare has only benefits for the parents

Not true. If a woman (or a man) stop working you lose part of your productive work force. The tax burden on the remaining workers to pay for schools, roads, etc. increases so there is a benefit in avoiding this

A subsidy is positive for everyone immediately if it encourages the parent to keep working and is less than sum of (tax paid by parent + tax paid by child carer)

It also makes sense in other situations. For example if a parent is in the early years of a career and has low salary but high earnings future potential you don’t want them to leave the workforce

I do agree there is inefficiency in the current system. For example state creches in Geneva have been designed with a lot of regulations and labour protections. I remember seeing the true underlying cost is well over >40k per kid per year

[Kay4rElle]

well start your initiative now then.

[Barto]

@Patron

You could argue in the same way that if the government had paid me the 120’000 CHF MBA at IMD I would be now even more productive and have a higher salary now.

In my example if I had to pay full cost of childcare with all the regulations on top of my high taxes it would not be worth it and I would stop working. Result: everyone else would lose my taxes (which are more than the cost of the childcare) and in addition there would be one less childcare job. 2 people no longer contributing and now net recipients of taxes, bravo

As usual the right answer is somewhere in between. To my mind it would be counter productive to replace one imperfect policy “too many subsidies for childcare” with an ideological but badly thought through policy “no subsidy at all”

[Kay4rElle]

Patron is a troll, you might just block him now… Also it seems that he has no other task other than patrol the forum to tell everyone how wrong we are doing everything.

[MrCheese]

Sorry I derailed the thread so badly. But I simply don’t understand parents that have kids just to put them to childcare asap. Just don’t have kids then or bear the full cost of having them. It’s like asking for the weggli and the 5 cents at the same time.

[rolandinho]

@MrCheese

Sorry I derailed the thread so badly.

Yeah your comment snowballed, didn’t it. It was innocent enough, but probably out of place considering the question. I might have made it myself in a conversation, with a bit of a . Unfortunately it was the ice-breaker for the narcissists though. This is the how forums degenerate, this short 20-post thread is a good example.

I find it kind of sad that it is absolutely forbidden to say anything against those that post their irrelevant opinions onto every thread in this forum, because that would be cancel culture. This thread is a good example of when forum moderation should step in. Hopefully they will one day.

Childless who comment on a thread about childcare options in Zurich.

[Dr.PI]

I am sorry to diverge more, but I would like to add a comment of a different type. Namely that humans are not made to live in a nuclear family, two (or one) parent/s and child/ren. Just look at the life style of large primates.

So if you are a large family living in a family farmstead, of course you don’t need a child care. There are always enough adults who can rotate keeping an eye on children while also doing other things. But if you are a couple of parents living with two children in Zürich, you can’t just bring them to your work and let them play with whatever is there while you are working. You need a child care.

Stop working to take care about children is also a nonsense of bourgeois boheme / people who want to be close to nature without knowing how things work “in nature”. Tell it to any, even a modern one, farmer, let them laugh. You don’t stop working to take care about children, you work and take care about children at the same time.

Another point is that children’s need (starting from 9 months or so) is not only to play with their parents. For a proper development, they also need to play with other children.

Nevertheless, excessive external child care like boarding schools is also not good for children, they should see their family every day. So, as always, you have to find a balance. For example both parents working 4 days per week and 1 day taking care of children. So you have 3 days per week of external child care.

[Kay4rElle]

@Dr.PI

Stop working to take care about children is also a nonsense of bourgeois boheme / people who want to be close to nature without knowing how things work “in nature”. Tell it to any, even a modern one, farmer, let them laugh. You don’t stop working to take care about children, you work and take care about children at the same time.

Also i would say that its not per se easier to take care of the children if they have a daycare, you have more things to think about. You come home from work, you still need to shop, maybe make laundry and clean, etc.

Alsowe sould all be grown ups here and know that there is not only one way to archive a goal. We should just give people options and let them do what fits them best.

[Barto]

@MrCheese

I simply don’t understand parents that have kids just to put them to childcare asap. Just don’t have kids then or bear the full cost of having them. It’s like asking for the weggli and the 5 cents at the same time.

-My partner wants to have a career, things are not set up in most employers to (realistically) have a long career break then restart, nor to work reduced schedules, without being labelled as “someone who should get the easy jobs because of their kids” (and get lower salary)

-job market in our area is competitive, not many employers look at people seriously after long career breaks

-my wife wants to have the choice to be with me and not be trapped- she can leave anytime if she doesn’t want to be with me anymore

-We were not wealthy enough to afford the luxury of one of us staying home to care for kids

-I also think it is good for my daughters to see the example of their successful mother not reliant on her, our parents were the same

We spend a lot of time with our kids - my view is that it is quality that counts not quantity. I see their upbringing being a lot better than many others with stay at home parents. If I didn’t believe that I would change

Maybe a mod can split into a 2nd thread “should parents use external childcare” and those who want to comment can

[MrCheese]

@Kay4rElle

We should just give people options and let them do what fits them best.

I agree, the point here was mostly that people seem to feel entitled to have kids but don’t want to miss out on career and expect some subsidies for child care. Every life/family decision comes with opportunity cost.

@Barto

-We were not wealthy enough to afford the luxury of one of us staying home to care for kids

What made you believe that you’re wealthy enough to have kids in the first place then?

@Barto

I see their upbringing being a lot better than many others with stay at home parents.

Yeah because taking care of a kids full time is harder than most jobs. My wife would confirm that any second.

As you can tell I have limited respect for parents not taking the full responsibility of having kids.

[Dr.PI]

@MrCheese

I agree, the point here was mostly that people seem to feel entitled to have kids but don’t want to miss out on career and expect some subsidies for child care.

Fine, let’s talk about it.

When you are in a cafe and a waiter brings you coffee, do you count costs of this person’s parents to raise him/her in your tips?

Did you already reimbursement your parents their costs of parenthood? With an interest or not?

[Kay4rElle]

@MrCheese

Having kids is ultimately a luxury and not a basic human right.

no one said that, and i think no one expects “free stuff” just cause they now are parents. It still is expensive.

But you see if for example Barto would have needed to relocate to save more money to finally have kids, this would have costet the economy more, since you lose talent & workforce where its actually needed.

Lets be honest, you still need to make a fair size of moeny to afford childcare, so its not just a free handout from the gov. There needs to be a balance to help the economy to keep the workforce ant skill where its needed, and i think we see different approaches in different countries.

Edit:

@MrCheese

As you can tell I have limited respect for parents not taking the full responsibility of having kids.

Aslo lot to unpack here, like does it make you a better parent if you are 100% around your child? Really? it this how you measure good parenting?
I feel like there is much more in raising a kid than just spend time toghether. But to each their own i guess.

[Barto]

@MrCheese

As you can tell I have limited respect for parents not taking the full responsibility of having kids.

are you seriously judging me or just trolling?

[Kay4rElle]

@Patron

But you knew that before, didn’t you? That children require a lot of attention and there is lots of work to do. This sounds like someone who buys a dog and then abandons it at the highway rest stop, when they notice it is too much work. But rather than abandoning it you ask tax payers to come up for your childcare.

Of curse, im not discussing that.
My point is about the argument “why have childern to put them in a daycare”. I wuold say its much harder to have children in daycare than to have a full stay at home dad / mum. So i would say that taking the taxpayers money makes the life of a parent more difficult, not per se easier.

I also would argue that if we did not have the childcare system the employer would create options for the high skilled people. And this would make products and services more expensive.
So now you have just a shift in the price of the childcare, from the tax to the products, you like that more?

[MrCheese]

Nothing personal against you. Just generic upsetness towards the need for people to have kids at all cost.

I also feel terrible that I for once agree with Patron (which I have blocked).

This is my last post in this thread

[Dr.PI]

Ok, I will try again to calmly express my point of view.

1. Any productive adult is a benefit for the whole society. Not only his/her parents.
   Agree?

2. Therefore, raising children is an activity that is beneficial for the whole society.
   Agree?

3. Parents are not even getting any profit from parenting. In developed countries, society partially compensate your expenses.

A little support for families is better than

• segregation of the society (US, Latin America)
• higher crime level, more police, more jails
• high medical costs for fixing adults who had troubled childhood

And most importantly, opportunity costs of losing thousands of talents who were not able to develop due to their family situation.