Avoiding negative CHF credit interest and protecting against inflation

I am not sure what you guys are trying to do. Are you trying to protect against inflation, or buying equity securities that behave like bonds?

The two are really different.

As you know, the value of any asset is the sum of its cash flows from now until judgment day, discounted to today’s value.

Bonds

For bonds, the process is quite simple:

  • Provided that the bond issuer does not go bankrupt, the future cash flows are contractual and are unaffacted by inflation.
  • However, the discounting rate will likely increase with inflation. As an example, take a 15 year bond with a $2000 principal borrowed and a $100 annual coupon. If the discount rate is 5%, the bond is worth $2000. If the discount rate goes up to 7%, the bond’s value is now $1’635 => the bond has lost 20% of its value. Bonds are very fragile against inflation.

Equities

For equities, there are a lot more moving parts. The value is still the present value of future cash flows discounted to today, but the future cash flows have many components.
The free cash flows will be mainly affected by three factors:

  • The ability of the company to raise its prices without losing volume of sales: doable when the company has a strong pricing power (for instance, a brand people are willing to pay for. Not all brands are created equal: you are willing to pay more for a Coca-Cola than for a Klutz-Cola, but you won’t pay more for a Sony Blu-ray player over a Kenwood one…). However if the company operates in a competitive environment, that won’t be possible.the worst case being a provider of a product or service where the only differentiator is the price, i.e a commodity industry. The higher your pricing power, the less you are impacted by inflation.

  • The costs incurred by the company, mainly raw components and labor. While everybody will be impacted by inflation of these costs, the impact on profits will not be the same for everybody - it depends a lot on your margin profile. At fixed sales, if your costs represent 90% of sales (i.e a 10% margin), if costs rise by 1% of sales, then your profits are now 9% of sales instead of 10% → profits dropped by 10%. However, if you have really good margins, for instance 40% margins, if your costs increase by 1% of sales, then profits are now 39% → the drop in profits is only 2.5%. The higher your margins, the less you are impacted by inflation.

  • Finally, free cash flow are impacted by maintenance capital expenditure, i.e the investment needed to make in order to stay at the same level of profitability. Your assets (factories, machinery, etc) wear and tear and need to be replaced after some time. The more you are relying on tangible assets to generate sales (example: mannufacturing, utilities, etc), the higher you will need to pay to replace your assets in case of inflation. Most of your profits will just be consumed by the cost of replacing your assets. The less you rely on tangible assets to generate sales, the less you are impacted by inflation.

  • Finally, inflation tends to increase the discounting rate, same as for bonds.

So in the case of equites, if you want to protect against inflation, you want to buy companies with high profit margins, lots of intangible assets (instead of tangible ones), and with pricing power strong enough to counteract the effect of an increased discounting rate.

Now when I see companies like Swisscom being suggested, it is true that they behave like a bond. Sales have been flat over the last 10 years, as did profits and dividends. Capital expenditure is high, and combined with flat sales it means that most of the profits are gone into replacing the assets to just keep afloat. In other words, the only thing going to the owners are the dividend - retained earnings are never going to add any value. So it behaves like a perpetual bond, with the dividend being the annual coupon.
And like a bond, it will be smashed by an increase in interest rates. Stable, bond-like equities will not protect you against inflation. You will get your regular dividend, but the principal (i.e the share price) will get hacked.

EDIT: Actually in the case of Swisscom and similar businesses, the case is quite easy to compute. Those businesses are functionally equivalent to perpetuities, so the value is simply the dividend dividend by the discounting rate. So let’s say the dividend is 1 CHF and the initial discounting rate is 5%. The value of a share is then 1/0.05 = 20 CHF. But if the rate raises to 7%, the value becomes then 1/0.07 = 14.3 CHF. The share would lose 30% of its value.

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Is there an ETF for this? :smiley:

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Fundsmith.

If you want to go for an ETF to save fees, MSCI world quality index probably gets to a similar result via a more indirect methodology.

Personally I am cautious about factor ETFs and how their algorithms might stand up in a crash. I am happy to pay Fundsmith’s fees given the long term performance. I have a high conviction in their strategy

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SSON? Frankly, it seems more volatile, but it has no better return than VTI:

But maybe it’s too early to tell… Maybe its real value will be shown in the long-term or in the major crisis (although last year’s corona correction in march was worse for SSON than for VTI).

PS. And if you add to the comparison VT, it seems that SSON has a better return than VT, but VT is much less volatile (meaning, it has better risk-adjusted returns).

No, I believe they meant “The FEF”.
SSON (and FEET) is the “baby fund”, easier available via IBKR. :slight_smile:
And I believe SSON is not just US equities (like VTI), and additionally only small&mid cap, so not really comparable.

Btw do these charts properly account for forex? (I’d believe they do, just curious)

Which platform do you use to check ETFs charts adjusted to forex (e.g. in CHF instead of USD) ?

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So what is their benchmark? If you compare SSON to small cap value funds it looks better, but not a lot better:

Google Finance doesn’t account for dividends or forex. It’s a dumb price chart comparison.

You can check the forex by comparing eg. LON:VEUR with AMS:VEUR, the same fund trading on different exchanges.

MSCI World SMID index they say (if that exists :grin:).
Short periods to compare, for both Avantis and them.
I suppose we’ll witness on the long run and when some serious downturns hit. :slight_smile:
In your comparison you can at least see they’ve been hit much less in March 2020.

I keep a bit of all of them (AVUV/DV, SSON, FEET).

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I added the performance vs. benchmark in the Fundsmith thread

Fundsmith focuses on large caps, Smithson focuses on small - mid caps which should in theory produce higher returns over the long term but with more volatility. The fund is closed ended to limit it’s size and was created partly due to Fundsmith growing so large it could no longer invest in mid size companies. Dominos Pizza was quoted as one example. I am gradually opening a position in Smithson via DCA, I am proceeding with some caution since SSON only has a 3 year track record.

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I own VYM and VYMI.
Also a lot of VTV (US Value).
I try to make VTV+VYM = VYMI to keep a 50% US vs Ex-US

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Just one tangential aspect – be careful that leverage is one of the criteria to potentially make you a professional investor (with capital gains tax obligations).

Example how inflation can be positive for some companies: P&G profits beat expectations in large part due to price increases

Do you know any ETFs that track the banks index? I couldn’t find any… :frowning:

I don’t think so…

I don’t think there are can be an ETF on regional swiss banks, they are too small and not very liquid. You can make a portfolio by yourself. I quickly checked and they should be available in Degiro, some are available in Yuh. But some have very expensive share price (ZUGER KB N 7’020.00), and I wouldn’t buy SNB or Cembra. Here you have to do selection yourself, unfortunately.

Thanks, but they are all cheap, p/b around 1 or even lower. Zuger has a p/b of 3 and a pe of 17 I think. So also very cheap. I put some limit orders into IB of the ones that are fairly liquid (SG, BL, VD, LU) but there is barely any movement in the price and the spread is too big, which is the whole point though because I want some low vol equity.

BCV is the second biggest cantonal bank in Switzerland and largest being traded, ZKB is not. So more a mid cap. Others are really something, I looked at ZGKB - the price is flat for 7 years except of a 10% Corona-dip.

I wish you patience with your limit orders, I think you will need it :laughing:

Thanks for sharing. I was at the preliminary stages of considering adding Cembra to my portfolio of individual Swiss stocks, can I ask why you’d exclude it from your hand picked pannel?

First, I am not buying myself anything that is discussed above, just sharing my thoughts on the topic. And the idea was to buy shares of regional and cantonal banks with a very predictable cash flow mostly from credits. Which Cembra, being in SMIM, is not for me. I would also question Vontobel, they are more like in financial derivative business.

PS: BCV is also a mid cap, but I think their business model is more of traditional credit giving type.

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