Where to find the absolutely lowest-fee index funds in Switzerland (as of August 2019)?

Also, VWRL on the Dutch exchange is a free trade with Degiro. You just pay 2.5€/yr for holding positions on that exchange. For simple buy and hold with a single or few etf’s, degiro is clearly cheaper than IB for <100k USD.

14 posts were merged into an existing topic: What should you focus on to accelerate FIRE?

If you take into account the higher TER of VWRL compared to VT (that you can’t buy at Degiro), and extra tax on dividends, Degiro is only cheaper under around 25-30k.

Thank you all for your insight. Having looked at the options, I chose to go with Swissquote for now; I figured that I will pay a small premium for the security of an established Swiss company managing my money.

Just to chime in on the unrelated discussion in the last few comments: I really agree that growing income is more important than cutting expenses. But I also think it may be harder than it sounds for many earners and that we should show empathy, not condescension, to those who are less privileged when it comes to talents and opportunities.

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Of course you are right. I was, wrongly, assuming that everyone is trading on a monthly basis.
If you only buy VWRL once or twice a year, it’s cheaper to go with IB.

0.25% VWRL vs 0.09% for VT = 75’000.- at IB to break even (no taxes, fees)
15% withholding tax on dividends for VWRL = 40’000.- if you calculate with 2% dividends (800.- * 15% = 120.-)
So depending on the number of buys per year, IB is indeed cheaper from 40k

5 posts were split to a new topic: Where should you focus on to accelerate FIRE?

And this can actually go down to 1$ for all 3 purchases together.
Use tiered pricing.

Depends on personal level I would still say.
Being FI (and maybe RE) with 50 is still way better than with 65+. :slight_smile:

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Now, let’s say I’m starting my savings into my chosen ETF from next year (2020). VT is no longer accessible for Swiss residents. So, why should I plan/take it into considerations on my calculations?

Thats not 100% certain I think? It looks like IB might still be able to offer it to swiss residents, we will have to see here: US-ETFs (VT for instance) not available anymore in Switzerland!

I’m just saying that if you have 30k today Degiro is not so much cheaper as it seems. Obviously if you are just starting now from 0 it is not the case. As for next year we will see how things turn out.

What will change next year?

Fake news. It’s been disproven time and time again.

I think it’s certainly possible they will discontinue their access to it. Even if they don’t strictly have to do it or if it’s a grey area legally, to just be err on the side of caution (and no, that one e-mail from the tax authorities quoted here on the forum proves neither point, though I commend the forum user for actually asking the question to the relevant authorities).

On the other hand, IBKR is probably big and professional enough to not just lump in Switzerland in with the rest of the EU, and due their due diligence on what they can offer here.

In any case, I’d question if all the thought and discussion that goes into this is all that worthwhile.

  1. You don’t have to sell previous purchases
  2. You can continue to make investment in VWRL instead of VT with the same broker at IBKR
  3. If you’re really on the fence which one to buy, it’s just 4 more months till that ominous Swiss law comes into force and we’ll definitely see IBKR’s reaction (or its lack thereof)
  4. Even if you err on your choice of the U.S. ETF, and you feel or actually had to switch to the IE ETF, how costly would your mistake be? I mean, how much does IBKR charge? Half a cent per share? Wouldn’t that just some 70 USD per million dollars invested in VT?

If IBKR did discontinue access to VT, I’d have no qualms about buying it til then (only question would be, if a small position that I can’t add to, is worth the hassle in the tax declaration).

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Again, Fake news. It’s not a grey area. The laws are crystal clear.

Apparently not that clear since IBKR recently stated that they will “most probably” apply in Switzerland the same restrictions that were set forth with PRIIPs regarding investments in ETF, ETNs and Mutual funds for EEA based clients.

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Do you have that statement?

See here

I would hardly call this a “statement from IBKR” and it is not set in stone (yet?).
Anyway I hope they don’t apply these restrictions.

How about: Financial Department (Swiss)

https://www.efd.admin.ch/efd/en/home/themen/wirtschaft--waehrung--finanzplatz/finanzmarktpolitik/fidleg-finig/fb-fidleg-finig.html

“Financial service providers are required by law to give clients appropriate explanations and advice. The two main client segments are retail clients and professional clients. Uniform rules are provided for with regard to the prospectus duty, with simplifications envisaged for SMEs. A key information document (KID) is now to be supplied for financial instruments offered to retail clients. The KID should enable clients to make informed investment decisions and genuinely compare various financial instruments in a simple and understandable way.”

So if VT does not provide KID it is not allowed, unless you fulfill the “non retail” criteria

Instead of the short explanatory summary, why don’t we consult the letter of the law?

Latest text (that seems to have been) for final vote that I could find (art. 9):

Bei der persönlichen Empfehlung von Finanzinstrumenten stellen die Finanzdienstleister der Privatkundin oder dem Privatkunden zusätzlich das Basisinformationsblatt zur Verfügung, sofern ein solches für das empfohlene Finanzinstrument zu erstellen ist (Art. 58 und 59). Bei einem zusammengesetzten Finanzinstrument ist nur für dieses ein Basisinformationsblatt zur Verfügung zu stellen.

Kein Basisinformationsblatt muss zur Verfügung gestellt werden, wenn die Dienstleistung ausschliesslich in der Ausführung oder Übermittlung von Kundenaufträgen besteht, ausser wenn bereits ein Basisinformationsblatt für das Finanzinstrument vorhanden ist.

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