By staying below the radar, I mean just filing your taxes normally.
We already saw one example here when someone asked for a ruling, then they were treated as professional.
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Is it? Iâve a case where I declared flats that neither belong to me (yet), nor do I obtain any benefit from, showed them that there is a usufructuary born in 1953 (thatâs how it shows up in my Greek tax forms), the tax authority in CH knows that my birth year is not 1953 and despite that charged me wealth tax on it. When I pointed out their mistake they said âah, sorry, we missed it, it wasnât clear from the document who the usufructuary isâ, when I asked for the tax to be returned saying âwell itâs clear itâs not me, because I wasnât born in 1953, and that should be enoughâ they said âYou didnât challenge it, and you paid the tax, so it canât be reversedâ.
Iâve always been ultra straight and conservative with taxes and the law, but it galls me to no end to see so many people game/cheat the system, get away with it, be smug about it, and then come up with âthe tax authority/the state/the police is never your friendâ. Probably Switzerland is better than most countries for fairness, though.
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In the UK they would have reversed it.
You see, me being naive, ignorant and scared AF around taxes I said to myself âthis is Switzerland, Iâll pay first and then challenge it, thatâs what the Swiss would do, and then ask for a refundâ. Little did I know that paying means I accepted the tax, and probably âthe Swissâ wouldnât do that either.
In Greece, for example, there ainât no effing way anyone pays first and then asks for money back, as they know that once the money is off your hands and into the stateâs handsâŠgood luck with that. I always found this attitude evident of paranoia, stemming from being from a country where the state is actively trying to cheat the citizens, and the citizens actively try to cheat the state in turn - and I always hated this attitude.
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Do you have any evidence based on more than just one or two anecdotes?
Yes, in many countries once you paid the tax, you have no chance of getting it back - at best you might offset it against future taxes.
Payment being tacit acceptance is also common.
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In some countries the tax inspectors are even incentivised to recover more taxes..
The whole discussion about professional trader status is a âDauerbrennerâ whoch also is a âSturm im Wasserglasâ.
If you donât have 100s of trades a quarter and use donât use major leverage to cherrypick stocks, options, futures, etc. the tax office will NEVER EVER classify you as a professional investor. You can sell 50M+ of VT tomorrow and will never end up being classified as a professional.
People misunderstand this topic very much. Living off of capital is not what makes you a âgewrbsmĂ€ssiger WertschriftenhĂ€ndlerâ. I think the translation âprofessional investorâ doesnât do it justice here: your job has to be trading securities (not investing professionally) with the intent of making money - building wealth with index funds or even stocks you hold for months - years is never part of this, no matter what volume you have⊠You can alos exit your 20B company and pay 0 cap gains tax, so imho we should all just leave this topic where it is - a virtual non starter.
If someone is really that scared, request a binding ruling in advance from the tax office, however there are probably 10âs of thousands of people living off of passive income in Switzerland⊠itâs a non starter and itâd be very stupid of the tax office to pen this door, as itâd lead to a massive exodus of wealth if that was a regular occurance.
Again: The wording âprofessional investor/tradorâ imho is a simplified translation, the german word encapsulates the nuance much netter.
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I had that thought too, again being a naive, dumb foreigner I thought âThe Swiss tax office are probably CIA-level psyops people, x-ray vision, the know what Iâll have for lunch on the 30th of Feb 2043 etcâ, but probably no 
Edit: I am sure these people exist, but they wonât bother with a low-NW sap like me!
There are many people who are not competent or not âengagedâ in their jobs and it isnât unique to the tax office.
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Yes.
This is not how the tax treatment is in the case of a professional investor. The law is made so actuve trading as a job is not tax free, not to bully passive investors.
This doesnât mean anything, might have been classified as a professional anayway and likely was a professional trader afaik.
While this is true, what constitutes âactive tradingâ is somewhat subjective. I doubt any tax inspector is going to be motivated to investigate and do work to classify someone as an active trader when they are making losses. Conversely, they will likely investigate if the tax payer is a making >1 million in profit.
So in practice, it is very much determined by profits/losses.
Sure, but selling globally diversified ETFs one held for years is definetly not active trading under any circumstance, the same it isnât active trading to sell ones company in an IPO or to a buyout.
Even if we attribute greed to the tax office, they have 0 grounds to classify the average user here. Itâs completely normal to sell 100s of thousands worth of stocks to buy a home for example, this really isnât such a big deal. Sold VT to buy VWRD myself, cap gains over my income, no questions asked - and I was leveraged over years and still am.
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I made the point a couple of years back that my understanding was that one âbuilds a caseâ for themselves in the eyes of the tax office: they see you declare X securities over years, you add to them, they grow, so when thereâs a big sale one shouldnât get questions. I was derided in the forum that âthereâs no case, capital gains are tax free, no questions, end oâstoryâ.
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Agreed, but these are not the only scenarios being discussed.
You also have some protection via the safe harbour rules.
I donât want to repeat myself and I also donât want to push this thread towards German, but in German the wording is: âgewerbsmĂ€ssiger Wertschriftenhandelâ - in english the term âgewerbsmĂ€ssigâ is translated as âprofessionalâ - but a better word would be âcommercialâ - so weâre talking about a âcommercial securities traderâ - aka someone whoâs business (even if not formally incorpoerated, is the buying/selling of securities in a high frequency, using high frequency trader instruments.
While we donât get a âdw guys, weâre one of you, VT and chill and youâll be safeâ from the tax authorities, the whole wording of the Kreisschreiben Nr. 36 is very much geared towards what I planned doing in my âday tradingâ thread and not at all to anyone who is a passive investor. Even better, you have tax reccords showing that you were buying at all times of the market at a fix or at least semi fix rate (savings rate from salary) one could argue: âwhat professsional investor would just buy and never sell for 40y, without any intention on evaluating companies or doing analysis on price movements?â.
Where the lines blure a bit is with buy and hold single stock investors, but even there, if you just hold for like 1+y and donât use margin, youâll be fine, as you probably shouldnât have 200+ trades in a quarter year.
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FYI, everyone: This thread is specifically for @kurt2 and is in the Share your story category. I think we can skip a general discussion. What matters is his situation. As follows:
He hasnât responded for two days now. Maybe we should give him some breathing room first. He might then provide further details, answers, or follow-up questions.
The general discussion on professional traders status is here:
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Would you mind sharing?