@wapiti and @Mr.HdLR Thanks for your suggestions. The pattern and the main posts have been updated! And the remark about taxation, healthcare and social contributions when we don’t work anymore is very relevant, because usually the info is only available for people able to speak the native language. One more reason to share our insights about our respective countries!
1 Like
Hi guys,
Does anyone perhaps have some of this detailed info on Portugal ?
thx
@1000000CHF Nice review of Poland!
I lived in Warsaw for 10 years, now in Zurich. Warsaw is indeed interesting to live, it is the place with a busy old town, large shopping malls, and the biggest media coverage. Skyscrapers, subway and modernized streets make you feel like you’re living in a place of constant development. The access to services is also fantastic. Zurich, in comparison, seems to be more sleepy, lower scale.
That being said, Warsaw is good for making career, but might be a bit too big for living. If you want to live in the center, you will have to pay extra. If I considered moving back to Poland, maybe I would consider Gdansk / Tricity Area. It is smaller than Warsaw, but still big enough. And it has the sea.
Weather in Warsaw is a bit worse than in Zurich. Summers are hotter, but winters are colder. From November to March Poland can be a cold depressive place, like most of Northern Europe. 
Fully agree. One the downside, it’s much bigger city, so city center in rush hours might be pretty crowdy. Zurich in comparison is pretty spacious and calm, even during rush hours.
I’d never live in a city center, especially in a +2M people city. It’s expensive, it’s crowdy, it’s smoggy, it’s nuts. There are better places in Warsaw or in close distance, where you have more forests and nature: Kabaty, Bielany, Młociny, Bemowo, Wesoła, Otwock, Kampinos, etc, etc.
Although I’d agree that Tricities area (or Wroclaw, or Krakow) are awesome places to live as well.
I find not that bad. In comparison to Zurich, it’s pretty similar just a bit more extreme.
I lived at the outskirts of Warsaw. I would not recommend it. The outskirts are full of “modern” blocks of flats, which have been built fast during the real estate hype. These areas (Kabaty, Bemowo) are essentially “bedrooms”. If you want to do anything interesting you have to go to the city. And unless you live directly by the Metro station, it will take a long time.
It will still take some years until I achieve financial independence, but that is exactly what I’m thinking. Switzerland is great, safe and beautiful, but very expensive. As long as I have a job here, I will enjoy living here. But when I decide to retire, I will want to either move out, or spend a lot of time abroad. I guess, ideally, I would like to keep the Swiss domicile and just stay abroad as long as these other countries would allow me.
For a long term stay, I was so far considering Poland (my home country, very low cost of living) or Spain (great weather, low cost of living).
I think there is something missing on those examples:
How much does it cost a week in a hospital? How much a heart transplant? etc…
For example is not clear to me if the private healthcare in Poland costs 10/100/1000chf per month or less and if I have an heart attack it will cost me all my money or not. This is to me the most important part of all this thread, since if I want to move to Poland (looks nice) I want to know what I would expect when I’m 70 and I might have to go to the hospital.
Btw, right now here in Switzerland I’m not 100% sure how much a heart transplant will cost.700chf from the base costs, but I read somewhere that many things should be self paid. I’m a bit ignorant on this (I’m healthy 
)
On a side note: I am opening a new thread about investments abroad. here
2 Likes
Excellent point, I will create a thread to discuss health insurance cost in each country and also for globetrotters.
Private insurance could refuse you when you get older
1 Like
Good remark, I have added it in the template and updated the post about France.
I have updated tax calculations for France as well, and the results are not very good…
I would like to come back to this : I am getting more and more interested about living in Poland in the future, so I’d like more details (my learning of polish language is not yet at a perfect level…)
How are taxed capital gains?
19% flat rate capital gains tax + 19% withholding tax
How does it work? Is it 38% total? PreviousIy I had read that capital gains were 19% total. How is this withholding tax levied? What if I have an IB account? Would polish authorities be able to impose this withholding tax on the revenue of this account? (I am not trying to not pay taxes here, but of course i prefer to pay them when they are due after I declare them, instead of the State unilaterally taking a part of my money without asking).
What about social contributions?
~PLN1100/month if you’re self-employed or investor
From what I understand, the “ZUS” is the organism in charge of social contributions and social security/health insurance/retirement. If what I have read/trying to translate is correct, people in Poland are not happy at all about ZUS (poor services with a high cost)
If I am not mistaken, ZUS forces you to contribute only if you are working. Is that correct? Would an early retired person living from the revenue of his capital be considered as not needing to pay ZUS? Or would the local authorities consider his investing revenues as a work? In my case I would then only need to pay a private health insurance, which would cost (for the fanciest) around 900 PLN per month for a whole family).
This is not such a trivial question because I realized that if you are not contributing to local social security scheme in Poland, then Swiss Authorities agree to pay you immediately your second pillar (you have to wait until being 65 else). Would that be possible as well?
Hey @Julianek, I think it’s 19% in total. At least this is how I understand websites like this one:
“Dywidenda otrzymana przez osobę fizyczną, stanowi u niej przychód z kapitałów pieniężnych, o którym mowa w art. 17 ust. 1 pkt 4 updof. Przychód ten powstaje w dacie wypłaty dywidendy lub postawienia jej do dyspozycji udziałowca/akcjonariusza. Jak wynika z art. 30a ust. 1 pkt 4 i ust. 6 updof, od przychodów z dywidend pobiera się 19% zryczałtowany podatek dochodowy, bez pomniejszania przychodu o koszty uzyskania.”
This basically translates into dividends are subject to lump-sum flat income tax with rate 19%.
You can read more about it here:
If you need help with Polish translation, just let me know.
Yes. It’s a symbol of pointless, wasteful, idiotic, corruption-generating, tragic, expensive, socialistic remains of the Polish state.
As far as I know, ZUS is obligatory. In fact, it’s even higher when you’re an entrepreneur or an individual investor. However, there’re some tricky ways to omit it and there’re many tax lawyers offering help with that in Poland (for example: http://www.zustoniemus.pl/ ).
I think this can be omitted - it’s enough to go for Mexico for a longer vacation and ask Swiss authorities to transfer your 2nd pillar to your Mexican bank account. Otherwise, I don’t know how it looks if you’ll go directly to Poland.
I need to read more about it because I also consider potentially going back to Poland once reaching FI.
1 Like
Thanks for these links, they are very helpful!
19% capital gains tax on realized capital gains (i.e. on sold stock) and 19% withholding tax on dividends. It’s not 38% as these are two different things being taxed.
You are not forced to contribute if you are unemployed, that’s true. If you are self-employed that you need to pay a minimum.
I would not be so harsh on ZUS… It’s basically the same thing as AHV in Switzerland. ZUS is the first pillar. There is also OFE, the second pillar, but it is a part of a big scandal in Poland. Basically, the ruling party PO transferred the private money from OFE to ZUS, where this money only exists virtually. Practically ZUS has annually a huge deficite of billions of PLN and it has to be refinanced by the state. In future the situation is only to get worse. But this is a problem that most of European countries are having, I guess.
That’s correct. However, the remaining part is treated as income as far as I know and it is subject to the income tax (flat 19% for individual investors, it’s called “podatek giełdowy”).
Yes, but for the Polish authorities you’re not unemployed if you’re selling stocks.
Well, it’s more wasteful (in terms of operation/bureaucracy costs), otherwise it’s the same, as it’s just transfer from taxpayers to retirees. However, for some wierd reason in UK you pay lower social security premium and you can expect bigger pension - maybe the immigration makes the difference. Anyway, I have similar opinion on both ZUS and AHV and all other welfare state institutions.
1 Like
By the way, the taxation is one of the reasons why I think it’d make more sense to have a permanent residence in Zug and (at least officially) spend 183 days there and rest of the year in Poland.
PS. A friend of mine is considering similar case but with Mexico. His lawyer told him that if he returns every 2-3 weeks to Zug for about half a year, and makes some photos every visit, the tax authorities won’t have any questions.
1 Like
Yeah, I believe if you retired with 1 million franks and moved to Poland, the capital gains tax would become a pain. Let’s say you lived by the 4% rule, 2% being taken from the dividends, and 2% from selling a part of your stash. On this 40’000 you would need to pay around 8’000, including ZUS (pension) and NFZ (healthcare).
How much would you pay in Zug? Some 2’000 in taxes, 3’000 in healthcare. And you would need a good friend who would provide you with an address. 
Btw do you know any other countries with no capital gains tax? A list maybe?
1 Like
How about Malta or Mauritius? Not only there’s no capital gains tax but also no dividend taxes as long as you don’t bring the income inland, so you can keep reinvesting practically tax free (obviously there’ s still US withholding tax which you can do very little about, short of reducing it to 15% via IE funds maybe). And did I already mention somewhere English is a first class language on both? No need to learn some third world aboriginal language to settle here
5 Likes
What about the spending in Malta ? Housing, grocery, ect. You will need to declare some income in Malta.
Malta is really interesting because it is in the EU. You can move there and become resident easily.
Cheap flights from Malta to Europe with low-cost airlines companies (Ryanair, Vueling, Easy-jet) are also a good point
Another option would be tio become a Perpertual traveler:
2 Likes
Here’s a nice list of capital and income tax free countries:
I’ve heard about Malta. I guess when considering a location, one needs to look at the following:
- Quality of life
- Cost of living
- Income tax and social contributions
- Capital gains tax
- Estate tax treaty with USA
- Double taxation agreement with USA
So for example Switzerland would tick all points except cost of living. When looking at the list of countries with estate treaties with USA, the only country with a really low cost of living is South Africa. Maybe it’s also a nice option.
Thanks for the link. It’s an interesting description. What I don’t understand is the point 4. asset heaven. Don’t you have to usually pay taxes on assets in the place of your legal residence (point 2.)? There are websites dedicated to perpetual travellers, like Nomad Capitalist (mentioned by @1000000CHF) or Nomad List. Nomad Capitalist is a business that advises in exactly what were discussing. I wonder how much they charge.
You could live at the border of Switzerland next to Germany and/or France and enjoy your cheap EU shopping
Unless you’re going to actively manage your portfolio and pick stocks, irrelevant - you can stick to buying IE-domiciled funds and get along just fine on both of these points
Or get a swiss passport, then your heirs can invoke the swiss treaty whereever you would die.
Also don’t forget to consider gift and inheritance taxes of your new country itself - even in Switzerland there are limits how far you can go before the tax authorities would take a bite of your estate too
1 Like