Ah yeah, thanks, I somehow thought there was an opt out option. Hm.
the Swiss system is based on society and a sense of âwe are the administrationâ instead of âwe against the governmentâ. In this spirit, it was fair if:
- Everyone (no matter what gender / what nationality had to pay 3% of military taxes from 20 - 35 years
- Everyone that served the army got a refund of X per day they served, whereas the payout will be spread over the next 10 years and this only for the first 28 days of service they did in the year; with a special bonus for the basic training
- Everyone that served in civil services or with the fire workers got 50% of that refund
- Everyone that was registered as a parent for each year the kid lived in switzerlandâs got 10 - 20% of that annual compensation (depending if they gave birth or not)
- The compensation was capped to 15 years in total that are awarded (with the later on spread payout)
- Clearly, non-Swiss Citicens were not allowed to serve in the Swiss Army, but they were very well allowed to serve with Civil Service
6 Likes
Just a general policy commentary:
It is not discriminatory to have different rights for different people groups (ie. citizens vs non citizens), this is pre established already, as if that wasnât the case, citizens couldnât have exclusive voting rights.
So a law, especially regarding the military service can and currently is discriminatory, but this is perfectly legal according to the ECHR. Whether thatâs good or bad is a political, not a policy issue - but in the end, itâs already a reality, that foreigners and citizens exist partially in different legal spheres.
1 Like
I wonder where this is going, but forcing permanent resident to do civil protection service would make having a tax make more sense for sure 
edit: link to motion GeschÀft Ansehen
Pretty insane to me. You donât have the option as a foreigner.
Also imagine someone already having served in their country.
And probably also just the men again.
1 Like
I wouldnât be surprised if all this is actually to gather more support for 10M initiative. Kind of saying foreigners donât pay equal taxes as Swiss men and enjoy same security.
Since the referendum will be tight , every little swing will help
1 Like
I mean from a practical POV - itâs very favorable for the government to do this. If you can get money from non voters instead of voters, I have to say (as a voter) go for it - anything better than touching my pile⊠And life isnât fair - moral or not, the fiscal reality, our growing government spending (which hopefully gets stopped quickly) and especially the pension scheme will make our government really creative.
I personally strongly oppose foreigners in the military or civil services. Gives me roman empire end times vibes - if you donât have enough countrymen ready to defend and help the country in dire need, we have a fundamental cultural problem that needs to be solved (imho).
I know we have some expats here who are not going to like this, and Iâm sorry for being a bit blunt.
I love Switzerland and itâs my home, but I am ready to leave should the conditions change. Too much loyalty is not in my best self interest and there are many other nice countries to live, that favor the preservation of âmoderate wealthâ.
1 Like
Of course. But then Switzerland has a brand name of most fair society, stable government, rule of law , transparency etc
Not sure if itâs worth tarnishing the brand for a bit of extra tax. Personally I wouldnât be impacted by it as I am past the age. And I also donât mind paying taxes. I actually think easiest way to raise money is to increase income tax but somehow govt doesnât like it.
I think Switzerland needs to always remember what is itâs business model. Which is to attract foreign capital, foreign taxes and foreign investments and to sell in foreign markets. All this needs an image to be maintained.
If we think about it a tiny country without many natural resources is one of the richest. It is only possible because of leveraging the access to the world markets and capital from the rest of the world.
Applying one sided taxes on foreigners just because they are foreigners doesnât work well for such images. But adding civil service for C permit holders sound fair.
4 Likes
Paying a 3% foreigner tax still makes Switzerland vastly superior in earning potential over any other EU country.
As harsh as it sounds, this is a very logical and calculated move imho.
EDIT: But I am not happy about this - the 13th AHV and general costs of the demographic trend will need to be taken from somewhere. I just hope I can FIRE and be as mobile as possible as I personally am a stubborn fella and not keen on paying the governments in this world money based on changed rules.
Dubai when the war is over will surely be nice again right 
? (jk)
Time will tell.
Imagine if US applies 10% Capital gains tax on foreign investors⊠it would be only fair because locals pay much higher capital gains tax. What would the world say ? âyeah sure , very logicalâ
We were very close to something similar (WHT rate hike) - luckily for us, it didnât materialize, but governments are looking for money! The US started a war over a tea tax while now heavily taxing itâs citizens themselves.
Wouldnât the smarter rational move be
- entirely cancel the military
- while ensuring a slightly mote robust border patrol / gendarmerie
- pay a but more to EU for security collaboration benefits
- tax reduction for all swiss tax payers
1 Like
I could see a scenario where it actually drives up inflation
It would put a very big dent in neutrality, for which we are not ready. Maintaining a military is a sine qua non of maintaining sovereignty for a mostly neutral country.
2 Likes
Iâm kinda thinking the best for economy and public funding would be increasing dual use.
Iâm sure military personnel could continue preparedness training while contributing further to civilian needs.
Same for industry since a large part is deterrence, to avoid boom bust cycles, if a lot of component have dual use (and can be produced mostly just in time) you can more easily scale it up/down as needed.
Otherwise it feels wasteful to spend bazillions on technology that becomes outdated in a few decades.
2 Likes
So foreigners should be taxed for benefiting from the security switzerland provides but switzerland should not pay for benefiting from the security its neighbors provide?
i can sense this diluting CHâs opposition to market access taxesâ
canât have it both ways
Dual use of the army is already quite strong now as military staff is routinely put to use for natural hazards, events organisation and civil security among others.
I think itâs a good path to have taken though I would enjoy a more marked focus on cybersecurity, for which we could develop a world-class expertise with military-civilian partnerships.
I really like the dual military service - civil service setup too. Part of the benefits of dedicating time to serving society when young is integration, developping a sense of service and mixing social classes to maintain peace and understanding between them. Opening civil service to foreign residents, and making it part of being a resident, makes sense to me.
As an aside, civil service includes internships that can be made in your dedicated field of work, which is how several of my friends have found their first job*. This can help with integration for first or second generation immigrants.
* Itâs pretty imbalanced actually, military service used to build you a great network that helped most with your career, nowadays, civil service gives very impactful advantages on the marketplace early on vs people who do military service.
1 Like
Inflation âwill go brrrrâŠâ as the kids say these days anyway.
I think most people donât realize what weâve got coming our way. I am a bit sad that Iâll likely still experience the money grab before I can FIRE myself, but feeding a lot of boomers costs money and as shown, they have absolutely 0 concerns for the younger working generation.
I wish the AHV was an opt out model, but itâs not and so the only thing I can do is save, invest and either outpace the tax hikes or eventually just emigrate to a tax haven country.
I do have a FIRE date in mind at which point Iâd be willing to make a sacrifice to preserve my youth and enjoy early retirement and Switzerland already isnât very favorable for âmiddle classâ FIRE people - like if you want to live on 50-100K or so, your AHV contributions and wealth tax actually destroy a lot of your wealth for very little in return.
1 Like
Whatâs your age and where are you originally from?
In my opinion:
Switzerland should contribute financially to a global European security initiative (aimed at defense and not offense). It should participate to partnership programs and exchanges of experience.
It should, in the mean time, maintain its own army focused on cybersecurity and on the ground defense (for which the militia system is great). Iâm torn on at what level missile defense should be handled. It would be more efficient on a European level but may develop too big of a dependency.
The purpose of maintaining a sovereign military being, in this instance, to maintain a possibility to say f*** you and break partnerships if needed (by enduring a lot of pain but a country who isnât willing to endure pain to maintain its autonomy isnât free and autonomous in the first place).
2 Likes