Is it stupid to consider this apartment given my situation?

[expatriate]

What’s the point of saving for later if you’re not happy/comfortable today?

I’m generally not a big spender, but have never saved on the two things that I really cared about - one of which is housing.

You can easily afford it. Go for it.

[magic_unicorn]

@Burningstone

Thank you for sharing your story.

Where do you spend the money that you don’t save?

8’400 net income

• 2’100 rent
• 2’400 savings
• 1’000 taxes (just an assumption)
• 300 health insurance

That leaves CHF 2’600 for everything else. You have no car, low transport costs, no pets or kids, no expensive hobbies, that leaves only food and entertainment. Care to elaborate a bit more where this money goes?

Don’t get me wrong, I think you are on the right path and had good success already, but I think there could be some potential for optimization in regards to expenses

Fair point, you’re right. Something is missing. And I have to admit I don’t know exactly since I stopped tracking daily expenses a couple of years ago
My best estimate is this:

• 1000.- Groceries
• 100.- Restaurants
• 66.- Internet at Home
• 46.- two phone plans
• 60.- public transport to parents / friends
• 30.- Bicycle maintenance / new bike
• 300.- Random stuff that is needed. Clothes, electronics, new blanket…
• 200.- Vacation. Not going on monthly vacations, but this is probably the monthly average we spend over a year.

Total expenses: ~1800 CHF, still leaving ~800 CHF unaccounted for.

So yeah you are right, I should be able to save more and I probably do. The saving rate I mentioned before is from my standing orders. But I sometimes re-balance the portfolio, where I have 80% invested and 20% cash. So I’m probably saving more effectively than what my standing order suggests. Guess I should start tracking my expenses again, which I will.

@Burningstone

As stated before, you are only at the beginning of your career, and once your girlfriend starts earning a good salary as well and your income increases, your savings will skyrocket and suddenly FIRE will come way closer.

Also true. I suppose that once I make 1-2 further salary jumps, I won’t sweat the higher rent anymore. And since I’m working at a startup, there’s no reason to assume, that my salary will be lower again at some point. It doesn’t get “worse” this, and it’s already quite good

Looking at these numbers, I’m actually quite proud to be able to save so much, given that one salary feeds two people in our case.

[magic_unicorn]

@dbu

They don’t, it “only” requires (luck and) patience.
Which you might have run out of with these conditions, so I completely understand.

@SteveDB

Thanks for sharing your story with us!

One but simple advice: FIRE is not a race against others. It’s your race. It’s at your pace. Plan for the future but ensure you enjoy and live the present.

Can you find a cheaper place to live? I think you could find a place north of Zürich or farther out or around the lake but without direct train connections. Or in another canton like Argau. Cycle to work is a massive benefit that not many have.

Thanks for the encouragement

I guess you are right. It’s easier to muster patience when you don’t hate your current situation so much As I wrote above, my plan is to buy into Genossenschaften in and around Zurich, and then hopefully find something nice in the next few years, where prices are okay and neighbours respect each other.

@dbu

If you still really like the 2900-place, the girlfriend will hopefully soon complete her studies and start working full time, so look at it as potentially a short/mid-term price for your mental peace (which is 100% worth it).

And don’t despair about “being far from FIRE” - you are only at the start of your career/s, and your income/s will grow.

Thanks for the reassuring words
My hope is that with more peace of mind, I can actually focus again on my personal growth as I did in the past when I had more energy left after work and on weekends.

@FunnyDjo

Thank you for sharing.
I cannot help rather than giving my support and my story.

I live in an old building own by a régie for an Invest fund in the centre of Geneva.
Most of Swiss buildings must be badly soundproof ad I have heard this story many time.
My neighbours upstairs are walking heavily heel first and they go to bed pass midnight. They were also moving furnitures at night in their bedroom above mine…
Luckily the neighbours at my floor were hearing it as well.
So after talking to them with no effect, we complained ti the régie by co-signing a letter and luckily they changed their behaviour and now wear flipflop. We can still hear them but it is better.

Next, I need to talk to my neighbours playing guitar during day time that I can hear in the living room.
It was disturbing during lock down but less now as I return to work.

It always helps hearing from others, that they have similar problems and that it’s not the end of the world, so thank you! I’m glad you were able to cause a shift in their thinking if they now are at least wearing Flip Flops.

In the previous apartment we tried talking to the elderly couple, and we even had our landlord with us at the same table. But it was hopeless because also in that case, this couple was the owner of the apartment. I’m now very weary when I hear that flat owners live in the same building, next to rental apartments. My experience so far is that they always assume to have more rights and you have zero leverage over them, since they cannot be kicked out by anyone. That’s my lesson learned.

@Burningstone

@SteveDB

Plan for the future but ensure you enjoy and live the present.

This a thousand times.

Offtopic: I can highly recommend the book “Four Thousand Weeks”, was an eye opener for me.

Guess I have a new book to read then

@Dr.PI

First, stop thinking about your financial situation as a miserable one.

I’m not, don’t worry. I feel quite lucky actually when it comes to the financial aspects. But that’s why it frustrates me even more, that we can’t seem to find an apartment that we don’t hate living in.

@Dr.PI

99+% will never become FI and have to work until they are “old and grey”.

If there’s one criticism I have about mustachianpost.com, then it’s the big headline on the front page saying “FI at the age of 40”, because for most of us it’s probably not going to work out like that. And seeing the headline stresses me out every time. I’m in my mid 30s now.

@Dr.PI

Second, are you sure that your next apartment will be comfortable for you? If you are so sensitive to noises from other people, try to rent an apartment in a newly built house. Or a whole house. But I am sure it is not possible/too expensive close to Zürich. So you probably have to go further away.

I’m quite sure it’s better since I have spent a few days and evenings with my friend there already. The only downside is that it’s on the same busy street that we currently live at. But if we start looking for apartments below 2500.-, close to Zurich, in a new-ish building, but in a quiet street, it becomes almost impossible

@Dr.PI

You still don’t have [to own a car] if you move.

And I hopefully never will. This was just to say that my monthly expenses are low (I hope).

@Dr.PI

Depends on what you call “a somewhat decent place”. An apartment with the host bedroom, huge living room, guest room and an office room? Probably yes. A one bedroom apartment with a living room? Probably not.

In the end it comes to what do you want and how much you are ready to pay for it. So make a list with all pro and contra factors and decide together with your girlfriend.

Thanks! Decent place is a place where I feel comfortable and happy. We are currently living in 60m2 and could totally stay here for a few years if it wasn’t for the outside factors.

@expatriate

What’s the point of saving for later if you’re not happy/comfortable today?

I’m generally not a big spender, but have never saved on the two things that I really cared about - one of which is housing.

You can easily afford it. Go for it.

That’s what I keep asking myself more frequently these days. I’m from a family where at our low point we did not even have money for Christmas presents. My parents are doing phenomenal by now, but the paranoia of having no money is sticking to me. Once had my master, I started saving for my first 20k as an emergency fund, to feel save. When I had that, the goal became 40k just to be on the safe side
The number kept growing while at the same time I was happy with my living standard. I really don’t need it. But what having a lot of money means for me is the same as it does for most people here I guess: the feeling of independence, and the peace of mind knowing, that I could be without a job for 2 years before running out of savings.

[ma0]

Let me share a quick “off topic” trick for all the people in “thin wall” buildings that have difficulties falling asleep. It’s actually a trick used with infants as well.
Grey noise. You need some kind of “boring” noise near you that cover any other annoying noise, because the problem is not the noise the neighbor does, it’s that it’s not regular enough.

A simple trick is to switch on a fan with a timer at low speeds. It will make a humming noise and will switch off after a while. Just don’t use a moving fan because when they move they might make an irregular noise.

sorry for the offtopic.

[Burningstone]

@magic_unicorn

1000.- Groceries

That seems a bit excessive to me, we spend around 1’000 on groceries as well for two adults, a dog (fresh cooked food with high quality meat) and a baby (diapers etc. included). However, it’s not bad at all and way better than most couples I know.

The other items seem reasonable and mustachian to me.

@magic_unicorn

given that one salary feeds two people in our case.

I was in the same situation for around 5 years with my wife, the only difference is that my wife has a low paying job and now works only 50% to take care of the child.

@magic_unicorn

FI at the age of 40

That’s impossible for I’d say 99% of people, only people with ridiculously high salaries (tech, upper mgmt. etc.) or extremly frugal people can achieve this (“Early Retirement Extreme” is a good read, he lives from 7’000 $ per YEAR).

[weirded]

@magic_unicorn

If there’s one criticism I have about mustachianpost.com, then it’s the big headline on the front page saying “FI at the age of 40”

Well I’m 46 and still half my way towards FI - if that may cheer you up !

[San_Francisco]

@ma0

Grey noise. You need some kind of “boring” noise near you that cover any other annoying noise, because the problem is not the noise the neighbor does, it’s that it’s not regular enough.

Or music. Helps me tremendously to concentrate.

@Burningstone

only people with ridiculously high salaries (tech, upper mgmt. etc.) or extremly frugal people can achieve this

So about half of the forum, you say?

Oh, and I believe we’re having a few super-frugal people, too.

[ma0]

@San_Francisco

Or music

The problem with music is that…you like it. I personally like music, so I’d be more or less listening to it, rather to use it to cover noise. I’m talking about falling asleep. During the day is perfect. (I use smooth jazz or thing like that (“study girl” anyone?) )

[San_Francisco]

Snap back to reality, ope, there goes gravity…

@magic_unicorn

Somehow I also refuse to accept, that a couple needs to shell out close to 3000.- CHF in rent in order to be happy and have a somewhat decent place.

Rightly so.

The thing is: you obviously don’t seem to be looking for a merely „decent“ (acceptable) apartment.

• super low taxes
• very quiet
• cycling distance from Zurich, one of the most expensive cities (housing/real estate) in Switzerland
• oh, and the location just happens to be by the lake

all of these factors come at a premium, they are, so to speak, an (affordable) luxury.

Back to the question: is it stupid? It‘s hard to argue against your - and your girlfriend‘s - happiness if that new apartment makes you happy, isn’t it? Is it a very „Mustachian“ choice? I doubt it.

[Burningstone]

@San_Francisco

So about half of the forum, you say?

First,I doubt that half of the forum earns super hig salaries or is super frugal, it’s just that mostly the people with high salaries tend to share it.
Second, this forum is hardly representive for the average joe in Switzerland.

[magic_unicorn]

I mean, you are right. I would just like to explain myself. We ended up in the current apartment because a friend of a friend moved out, and we desperately wanted to move away from the other place. The fact that with the move I was able to save 200.- CHF monthly in taxes, and 150.- monthly for ÖV was my justification for spending 400.- more on the new apartment.

These are by no means hard requirements. It’s just nice when the net-sum of expenses doesn’t change much after a move

[CryingSofa]

@magic_unicorn

My best estimate is this:

• 1000.- Groceries

This one stood out to me most from your list. I think there’s a lot of potential to save (at least compared to the other ones). If I may suggest one (rather short) thread in the forum to you: Eating cheaply - Meal plans, where and what to buy

[dbu]

If that includes food at home + work/uni (i.e. all but going out for dinners) for 2 people per month, IMO it’s nothing out of the ordinary.

I am probably averaging
~300/month groceries
~200/month work canteen

And I don’t buy any fancy stuff nor too much meat (mostly Migros).
Sure one can get lower (Aldi/Lidl/Germany), but not worth the effort and lack of choice for me personally.

[user137]

Go move in. Silver coast (I guess?) is not getting cheaper and supply of flats is virtually non-existent.

In 3-5 years you can earn 150k+ and the GF might also tap into 100k+ territories. But rents will not get raised

It’s super important to be content and happy with the place you’re spending half of your days. Otherwise it goes against your productivity.

[San_Francisco]

@user137

But rents will not get raised

Why not, if reference interest rate increases?

[user137]

That’s a possibility, yes. Even though I’m a bit skeptical given how pressured the whole market is - average rents have been falling sharper than the base rate for the last 5 years. If suddenly everyone’s rents would be raised by, let’s say, 10% that might be a systemic risk to the whole economy.

Do you know how close are the SNB base rate tied to reference rates for rents (namely, we should’ve gotten a raise already some weeks ago, but we still didn’t)?

[Burningstone]

@user137

Do you know how close are the SNB base rate tied to reference rates for rents (namely, we should’ve gotten a raise already some weeks ago, but we still didn’t)?

The reference rates for rwnts are not based on the SNB rates, they are based on the average mortgage rates.

Here’s a document describing how the average mortgage rates are calculated → https://www.bwo.admin.ch/dam/bwo/de/dokumente/04_Mietrecht/42_Referenzzinssatz/berechnung_des_hypothekarischendurchschnittszinssatzes.pdf.download.pdf/berechnung_des_hypothekarischendurchschnittszinssatzes.pdf

The reference rate for rents hasn’t changed since end of 2019. It’s lags behind the mortgage rates. This is due to the rates being calculated on all mortgages, which includes a large portion of long running fixed mortgages with older rates.

[prodent]

@magic_unicorn

my plan is to buy into Genossenschaften in and around Zurich, and then hopefully find something nice in the next few years, where prices are okay and neighbours respect each other.

Good idea!

I got lucky this summer and scored a place with geho.ch in Manegg after a little less than a year on the (free!) waiting list. If you can live with (some) train noise it’s great and the lake is still less than 10 minutes away. I’m surrounded by families with little kids but wouldn’t actually know if it weren’t for the dozens of prams downstairs. The soundproofing is excellent. There should also be a bunch of non-Genossenschaft apartments becoming available down the street next year at “ZHIL” but IDK about the noise level coming from the motorway on three sides of the building…

[Dr.PI]

@user137

average rents have been falling sharper than the base rate for the last 5 years.

Well, in this case you care about rates in the place you live, as you can’t diversify it

[user137]

Somewhat off-topic here, but that Manegg quarier looks awfully crowded, and even though the buildings are solid, they all have about 1 side that is liveable, and 3 sides that are facing the trains/motorway/north/other buildings.