Again, Postfinance E-Trading is managed by Swissquote and you pay only 72.- p.a. Which are even trading credits.
The cheapest combination with IBKR to just transfer stocks and hold at PF IMO.
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Can you hold US ETFs in Postfinance?
I was not aware of that.
I don’t hold any (just hold SSAC and FWRA at PF) but I just tried and the order was submitted (not executed because the market is not open).
So I assume that everything which is possible at SQ should be possible at PF since its operated on the same platform…
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And I would wonder why transfering US ETF to PF/SQ if you can’t reclaim the WHT, have higher trading and FX conversion fees, etc?
I only hold US ETF at IBKR and IE ETFs at PF which are listed in CHF at Six
Am I missing something?
You can claim WHT irrespective of which broker you use.
For IBKR, you reclaim 15% because only 15% is withheld for US domicile ETFs (assuming proper W8BEN form was used)
For SQ, you reclaim 30% (15% held in US + 15% held in SQ)
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One can easily use lot of European brokers for European ETFs, in this regard there are many options like PF, SQ, Cornertrader, Saxo, Degiro etc
So while I was looking for a backup broker to IB, I was looking for a broker where I can also trade US ETFs. This would leave me with flexibility if I ever want to transfer positions. Only realistic option without any waivers was SQ
That’s all. This is why PF doesn’t meet my needs. But now you wrote that it is possible to buy US ETFs on PF, so it is good info for me.
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You do need to make sure that the broker is an IRS qualified intermediary, properly handling W-8BEN. Otherwise you lose an additional 15% to the IRS (which will theoretically be refunded on request by the IRS but you certainly want to avoid that). Any decent broker should fulfill this requirement these days but this should always be checked if unknown.
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Good point.
My comment was mainly referring to IB and SQ. but indeed this is very important point
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I actually like the idea of transferring US ETFs to a swiss broker once I feel uncomfortable with the portfolio size at IB. But probably you want to transfer them back to IB when the time has come to sell because of the high fees (trading and FX)?
Note: To open a PF trading account you also need a private account (60CHF per year)
That is true.
But I think when the time comes following would have changed
- SQ trading fees will be lower
- forex fees might be better at that time
- there would be more players in Switzerland where you can get better deals (rise of Fintech)
- stamp duty might still be there though
And of course option to transfer back to IB will be there. I think it costs 50-100 CHF per position. So best would be not to have too many different ETFs.
I strongly believe that competition , AI and scale will help reduce costs. If Saxo can offer US ETFs as 1 USD trading fee, SQ need to do better than today
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Note: the basic account is free if you hold enough assets in your trading account.
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= 25000 chf.
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PF uses SQ, in fact when I transferred my custody account from UBS to PF, the transfer was to Swissquote. There is a wall of text explaining these are for qualified/institutional/high net worth investors you need to accept through to access VT, AVUV, etc US ETFs, so the waivers you’re talking about are one and the same - it’s the same platform.
The question, out of curiosity, is what is missing from UCITS ETFs that you need to look at US ETFs for? Exotics (leverage, synthetic)? High-yield? Factor investing?
The only reason US ETFs are interesting are following
- lower TER
- better tax situation for Swiss residents
Approx 0.25%-0.30% is lost if someone uses VWRL instead of VT for example.
That’s all
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You can at pretty much any broker that offers U.S. securities (including Saxo), even as a retail client.
I get you, I just don’t want to put any eggs in IBKR. I’d even made a post about it here where the community convinced me to move from ultra expensive UBS to much more palatable PF.
I think it’s alright. Whatever makes you feel comfortable:)
May I ask you why?
I see a couple of seriously negative points of IBKR, like no hack protection and legal complexity, but don’t go as far as no any eggs at IBKR.
There are quite a lot of assorted threads discussing Swiss brokers, and the questions keep popping up. Anyone up to a challenge to create a wiki post about it? Moneyland has info, I know, but it is difficult to compare at a glance.
Maybe also add general pro and contra. Like I didn’t know that you can in principle request the whole US WHT back if you have US securities at a Swiss broker.
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Because I wouldn’t feel comfortable with it. I want to have the ability to walk into a building and talk to a human if I have any sort of problem.
Few months ago my card stopped working, totally all of a sudden, and I was parked in a garage which didn’t have twint, and didn’t carry cash with me, and was about 30km from home. Thankfully a UBS branch was nearby so I could go and get some cash at the cashier to get my car out and get home (as well as order a new card). This was literally the first time a bank card stopped working on me in almost 30 years of having one. That was stressful for me, can’t fathom how stressful it would be to lose access to years of savings and having to hang by my email or customer support. Now I got 2 bank accounts and always carry cash again. I know I am a relic, an anachronism, but it’s fine, my sleep is worth more than a few franks per year in fees, and my investing is very vanilla anyway so PF covers me completely.
Edit: to add one more point, I am borderline disgusted with people earning 150-200k/year or more yet won’t STFU about how Revolut is “fair” and “boomer banks are robbing us”. I described the above to a friend who, of course, only uses neobanks etc and he said “if my card stops working I’ll have one in my mailbox tomorrow”. I said it would suck to be in a situation of losing hours of my day going back and forth trying to rescue my hostage car because I am cheap. “Pay peanuts, get monkeys” is something my PhD supervisor used to say, “not rich enough to buy cheap things” is something my dad always said. I just don’t want to find myself in a situation where being cheap bites me in the ass HARD.
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