Hi,
Yes I did and it is currently active (I did it to save taxes and also have some safer investments).
Exactly, there is no insurance so there is about CHF 1’000 fees during the first year (opening contract, etc) and pretty low during the next years.
The investment is following the portfolio of the Rentes Genevoises, which yields about 8% per year on average, they told me.
Yes, I just received my 2023 taxation and it is accepted (I already knew it)
Cool. Thanks for the feedback 
The return on the equity portfolio is shown on the Rentes Genevoises website between 2011 and 2022. After calculation, we obtain an average of 7%/year over this period.
I wanted to know if this was an interesting solution. To do so, I compared it to the SP500 (IVV). During this period, the CHF return was 11.7%/year.
My variables and assumptions :
Conclusion: the results are roughly the same. With these assumptions, I’d say that the Rentes Genevoises solution is slightly better than investing in the SP500, as volatility is lower.
But :
Although interesting, it doesn’t seem like its worth the hassle to try get these returns on complex/fee heavy 3b structures.
In my head the only function of a 3b would be for when I have kids to explore whether its better value term life insurance.
Is that before or after fees?
Per the post above fees on rentes Genevoises seem to be ~2% per year, I would assume they would underperform the market by this amount
Below a quick and dirty calculation. Assumptions: 20 years contribution, 2% management fee and 25% marginal tax rate (excluding Federal taxes)
There could be a small benefit but not worth pursuing in my case. Especially since I expect to stop full time work so my marginal tax rate will decrease, it may not even pay out at all.
I don’t fully understand the nature of the product, apologies if I missed something
I think it’s before fees (it’s on their product sheet), but there’s no indication.
We can also do another calculation: assuming that the returns between the years 2013-2022 are before fees, I get a correlation coefficient of 0.95. The Rentes Genevoises equity portfolio and the SP500 are therefore highly correlated.
With 10-year historical performance and taking into account all the fees mentioned above, the SP500 is much better. Keeping the same performance ratio of 11.7% / 7%, the SP500 would have to fall below an average yield of 4.4% for the Rentes Genevoises solution to become attractive (without considering the volatility and various risks mentioned above).
You can change the assumptions as much as you like. In my case, I’d feel more comfortable without a new long-term contract.
Really interesting, thank you !
Too bad that we can only invest up to 60%, otherwise 80-99% would outperform investing this amount ourselves.
Related to this discussion, does anyone understand how ‘INTÉRÊTS ÉCHUS DE CAPITAUX D’ÉPARGNE’ works?
Link to AFC site
If I understand well, interest income from savings accounts and bonds can be claimed under the same deductible as for life assurance.
We didn’t have any interest income for a few years so I didn’t pay attention until preparing our 2023 declaration yesterday
If my understanding is correct, it would be another argument for many people that counts against signing a lengthy life assurance contract (if your primary goal of taking the life assurance was the tax reduction)
The guidance says market value so pick something reasonable. Max wealth tax for the wealthy is ~0.8% so it is unlikely to be challenged unless you own a luxury car.
