Sure, but that’s not RE!
Maybe we have to go with the assumption of an average Swiss resident who starts work at the end of apprenticeship (age 18-20). 30 years of work in Switzerland (age 50) can still be considered RE, no? Unless the underlying assumption is that most here are expats with limited exposure to Swiss salary and pension system.
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That’s true too, I wasn’t even thinking of anyone starting work before at least 23-25, academic buffoons like me started properly working at 29-30… but yes, compounding for 30 years should get anyone somewhere.
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Figuring out what the target is, which is essentially figuring out what you want to do with your life, takes years. It’s absolutely a core advice in terms of FIRE, to just “get going, start saving” and figure out towards what target exactly later.
I have four levels, similar to your approach:
- Basic financial security, able to take risks in life without short-term financial pressure. For me, this was 300k.
- Basic financial independence, able to retire and life of your savings indefinitely with a reasonable life style (with no dependants, i.e. potential family not considered). Mathematically, this was the typical FIRE calculation of 4% SWR covering current cost of living.
- Actual financial independence, not needing an income any longer in any reasonable scenario, including having a family. Mathematically, this was almost double my current cost of living with a 3.2% SWR.
- Fat FIRE, the upper boundary allowing a luxurious life style (obviously in my own personal view, there is no limit to spending money after all).
I’ve reached 1 to 3, and 4 is less a target and more a reminder to actually retire, and not fall into the one-more-year trap.
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For me the difference is
- don’t need to work
- versus assured to never need to work
I don’t need to work but still ‘worry’ about the scenario of a major recession and downturn in the stock market (even though I probably shouldn’t given the income the portfolio generates regardless of the stock market more or less).
If I had 3-4x as much as I had now - it would a complete zero worry life.
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Not related to money imho.
Human beings have an extreme ability to worry, once money’s not a problem, they find something else.
Or the money stash is itself a worry. It’s not once you don’t care about it, which happens to be antagonistic for many once it reaches millions.
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I believe that is different for each person. Of course, each level of $$$ brings its own issues… if you are an oligarch you have worries about e.g. security, about ensuring you can pay for the HUGE possy of ‘hangers on’ depending on you, etc. for example.
Still, when you no longer have to fundamentally worry about the small stuff, I have to believe it makes a difference. I.e. not having to save to buy a car, not having to worry about dividends being paid so you can pay the mortgage, etc. etc. Yes, there’s also non-money worries and people will always find something to worry about and people also tend to want ‘more’ at whichever point they are, my experience is that more money does result in less worry (all other things being equal - e.g. health, love, etc.)
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I have a lot of gratitude for:
- Not having to worry about price when grocery shopping
- Filling up car tank full whenever I need to
- Having the roof over my head paid for each month without having to stress over it
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@Wolverine That’s a really healthy way to think about it. Using π% as a built-in reminder that the number is somewhat arbitrary is clever, and probably more honest than most people who treat their SWR as gospel. I think a lot of us fall into the trap of optimizing the number to the second decimal while forgetting it’s based on assumptions that could shift any day.
And the fact that your 750k actually maps to your real out-of-work expenses gives it weight. That’s not a fantasy number, it’s grounded. I think that’s what makes your framework feel more actionable than most FIRE calculators I’ve seen. They tend to spit out a number without asking how you actually live.
@Mirager The image of the glass cracking really stays with me. I think that’s exactly the kind of moment where “enough” stops being a spreadsheet question and becomes something much more personal. Once you start asking “what did I give up to get here,” the math doesn’t really help anymore.
The kids’ education piece makes it even harder. You can’t just optimize around that, there are windows that close and don’t reopen. I don’t think there’s a clean answer to the question you’re raising, but I think the fact that you’re asking it now rather than at 60 says a lot. Most people never get to that level of clarity while they still have options.
Curious how your wife sees it. In my experience, these decisions only work if both people feel the pull, not just one.
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@Giff Ha, I think you just described the most universal law of personal finance. No matter where you are, “enough” is always just out of reach. The question is whether that’s motivation or a trap. Probably both, depending on the day.
I think you are focusing too much on numbers when, to me, it is the mindset that makes the most difference. Numbers can help anchor it but I feel it’s more sturdy if we manage to turn it into just how we live.
To me, the 750k number is grounded because actual people manage to actually do it day after day. We get too used to comfort. The things I really need are:
-
access to a bed, a shower, a kitchen, a washing machine and a spot where I can feel safe and practice mental recovery (some people call that an appartment or a home but it doesn’t necessarily have to be all in the same place - also, the living room with sofas and a big TV? Not a need but a want).
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food on my plate (also a bowl and a spoon - extras like a plate, a fork, a knife and a glass are cheap and can easily be added to the mix).
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healthcare (premiums, deductible, copay, extra for non-covered stuff).
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a few clothes a pair of shoes, hygiene and cleaning products and a place to store them.
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access to utilities (tap water, toilets, electricity), a cheap phone and a cheap plan (which gives me access to the internet, cheap enough plans come with unlimited data in Switzerland nowadays).
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enough money to pay the mandatory bills (Serafe, taxes, AHV if applicable, others).
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a few money on the side for small unplanned stuff or social activities (make it 100 CHF/month).
Having that PLUS 100% free time means every buck I would earn would be a bonus AND I have all the time in the world to actually make those extra bucks IF I choose to. I can then choose to live soberly but not owe anything to anybody (as far as can be achieved in Switzerland) or give up some of my time to earn a few bucks and get that specific thing/activity I want to have/add to my agenda. If I want to, I can certainly make 200-800 CHF/month for the going outs eating a steak with morels sauce, that piece of hiking gear I may be eyeing and that trip cross border that I can optimize since I’m not restrained by time anymore.
If anything, restaurants and hostels are always hiring. McDonalds do too if getting inside the circle is too difficult at first (experience at McDonald and networking then opens working at other places if that was a difficulty at first).*
I don’t see getting (temporary) side gigs as a loss of freedom in FIRE in that context (where my actual needs are covered by FIRE money). It’s just a balancing act between my wants and the efforts I’m willing to make to get them, which is healthy, covering wants should come at a price.
* as a side note, one of the unexpected (to me) benefits of studying is having practiced those side jobs and the confidence I can get them whenever I want if I need to.
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Ah she’s further ahead than me, having grown up in a lower resource environment than me, her point is that everybody can make it through being smart and diligent. She doesn’t put much stock in the value of getting head starts and bonuses in life, also has a distaste for people who’re like that (I do too). I tell her that it’s not required to play life on hard mode if you can avoid it, there’s no Achievement on life’s PS+ network at the end for anyone.
I disagree with the idea of closing windows of opportunity, what makes you say that? The key point is, moving back to GR would mean they’d struggle at first with the education system (far more academic, not at all practical, heavy emphasis on VOLUME of information and work, memorization, homework, unlike CH schools - they basically learn to memorize long enough to sit exams, they don’t learn how to learn, anymore…).
I still think it’s great for them here in so many ways, they’ve seen and experienced things they wouldn’t have otherwise if we were still in Athens. Learnt fluent German with minimal effort, will also get French. The opening of their horizons stemming from the simple “let’s hop over the border to Germany, Italy, or France” is critical for me, not everybody has it - most people are rooted in a place and afraid to move. But the flipside is…we the parents not feeling like staying here anymore could filter down to the kids a feeling of transience, non-commitment, floating, lack of care and investment in their surroundings - these are all bad things.
Dunno, it’s a complicated thing to go through with no clear answers, certainly none answered by what % our ETFs moved!
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@Wolverine thats a fair challenge and I think youre right that I was leaning too hard on the numbers side. The mindset piece is probably more important long term.
What strikes me about your list is how stripped back it actually is. Most people when they think about FIRE imagine maintaining their current life forever. You’re basically saying - no, figure out what you actually NEED, and suddenly the number gets a lot less scary. The 750k makes total sense when you look at it that way.
The side gig point is interesting too. I think a lot of people see FIRE as this binary thing where you either work or you dont. But having your basics covered and then choosing to work for the extras is a completely different relationship with money. Its not dependence, its optionality.
The confidence from having done those jobs before probably helps more than people realize. Knowing you CAN always go back takes the pressure off in a way that no spreadsheet ever will.
@Mirager the point about your wife being further ahead because she grew up with less - that really resonates. Sometimes the people who had less are just better at knowing what actually matters vs what’s nice to have. Less noise in the signal.
And yeah maybe “closing windows” was too strong. I was thinking more about things like language immersion at certain ages or school transitions, but youre right that learning how to learn is the real skill and that doesnt have an expiry date.
The honesty of “no clear answers” is probably the most useful thing anyone has said in this thread tbh. Everyone else (including me) is trying to build frameworks and levels and numbers. Sometimes the real answer is just… its complicated and you figure it out as you go.
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@1742 four levels makes a lot of sense actually. I only had three but I never thought about separating the “just me” number from the “with a family” number. thats probably the part where most people get it wrong because they plan for one and then life changes.
honest question, when you hit level 1 did it actually feel different? or did you just immediately start thinking about level 2? because I keep hearing people say the goalpost moves and im trying to figure out if thats inevitable or something you can avoid.
Didn’t really feel different, but realized that savings do accumulate (sounded like a nice theory, not something real you can do). And, started to take more risks, doing what I felt was right, not necessarily what my boss thought. This turned out to be a valuable career accelerator.
I did avoid lifestyle creep by continuing to live he same life as everyone around me. The goalpost still moved, but I think that’s normal? Just make sure you close the gap to your goalpost still closes, and you will eventually get there.
@1742 thats probably the most honest answer in this whole thread tbh. I think we all build up these milestones in our heads like theyll come with some big emotional shift but maybe its really more like… the absence of a certain anxiety rather than actually feeling rich or free.
the lifestyle creep thing is sneaky. For me its never been a big purchase that does it, more like small defaults changing. You stop checking prices at the supermarket, you take the taxi instead of the tram without thinking, you subscribe to stuff you forget about. None of it feels like a decision, it just kind of drifts.
did the jump from level 1 to 2 feel different though? Id imagine at some point the numbers start to feel less abstract. Going from “I could survive if something happens” to “I could actually choose to do something else” feels like it should hit different even if its just a few CHF more in the account.