About democracy, rights and immigration

This is a very good point that often is missed because democracy has a divine status in the public discourse.

You know that this argument might actually be stretched to work against mass immigration to Europe from underdeveloped countries? If you can’t just implement democracy in Iraq or Afghanistan to make it all good, then inviting millions of people into democracies sounds to me like asking for trouble.

Economic theory suggests immigration is net positive for the economic growth. It is, however, pretty complicated topic in practice (especially in “generous” welfare states), as you can read here, here, here, here, here, and here.

I imagine USA refusing immigration to Steve Job’s father, or to Einstein, pretexting that their country was highly instable. This makes absolutely no sense. What a country want is immigrants coming to work and capable of integration, to have a cohesive society (i.e, they do not come only for the state’s welfare subsidies).

Didn’t I write “underdeveloped”? Syria wasn’t really an underdeveloped country. Educated people are of course welcome and they contribute to GDP growth. I’m talking about people whose only education is radical islam. With proper screening and selection, immigration is beneficial, but if you’re letting in anyone, just because they came on a dinghy, then there’s something wrong.

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Well let’s take Iran then in this case, a radical Islam country without democracy.
I know there are tons of successful Iranians immigrants in Canada that successfully integrated.
Why? Because Canada has a quasi open-door migration policy, as long as you are proving that you are coming to work there and bring value. Almost no subsidies.
European countries on the contrary have immigration problems, not because of migrants per se, but because the welfare state will give them tons of money without counter party. Not the very best incentive.

In european countries, migrants are not the problem, but the symptoms. You can keep chasing them, they will come back, in the same way that breaking a thermometer will not make a fever go away.

I used to think this way and was on your side. However, the problem of child marriage and molotov cocktails thrown at Jewish schools in Sweden made me rethink that proposition. I think limiting the welfare would lower the crime rates (because criminals would have to work harder), but it wouldn’t eliminate all the problems that Sweden currently has with “radical” muslim immigration (read the links in my previous post).

It’s difficult problem to balance out. Of course, if you limit all immigration from Iran, you give up a lot of talented, productive and calm individuals, but if you open the gates to everyone, you eventually bring the crime problems that those people have at their own countries and create new problems by clashing the cultures - anti-Jewish and anti-Israel “demonstrations”, no-go ghettos, rise of right-wing populist movements, rising racism and anti-Muslim sentiment etc… It’s really complicated topic.

PS. Iran is even exceptional case because the government is radical, but most of the population (and especially the immigrants are not). I have three friends from Iran here and they’re obviously fully westernised - they were brought up in Switzerland though.

I didn’t say that the immigrants should come from a democracy. Iran is also a country where the people are getting educated. I mean like illiterate adults in their 20s.

Sure, I agree. It all begins with pure intentions, but pretty soon people start abusing the system and you end up with half of the society working full time jobs and paying 50% taxes, no time for family or kids, and the other half leeching on the system and producing babies. And this doesn’t only apply to immigrants, also to locals.

I have no first-hand experience, so I can’t say if it’s not “fake news”, but what about no go zones in France? What about 10-fold rape increase in Sweden? What about the New Year’s Eve in Köln? There are more examples. I can’t tell if I’m just being manipulated by some media, or if it’s a real problem. Nowadays it’s hard to tell…

That’s why I provided links to “legit” sources, like bloomberg, bbc or thelocal.se, in my previous post.

PS. The sort of “good” thing about this madness is that immigrant violence become so widespread in Sweden that left-wing and mainstream media can’t hide it anymore.

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These are not a thing :slight_smile:

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Fox News reporters might be dumb and ignorant, but what about the crime rates in Marseille and Paris then? For example, according to this index they have the highest crime index among Wester European cities.

Well maybe Fox News made a shit job, but I can find numerous articles that say, that there are areas in French cities, where the Police doesn’t intervene.

I don’t want to enter in this discussion, but here my 2c

  1. Iran is not a radical country. Let’s say that they have their own version of Trump

  2. No Go zones exists in Italy for example. I have an italian friend that once told me that there are zone of Turin where ambulance and firefighters (and ofc. police) don’t go. Yes, he is from Turin.

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Unless you’re gay or in political opposition, then they will torture and hang you. They have some other issues as well. Nevertheless, it’s still “moderate” compared to some other countries in that region.

In Iran sharia is the law. Before the Iranian Revolution it was a secular state and now it’s an islamic republic. Girls used to wear western clothes, now they’re wrapped in niqab. Maybe I’m missing something but does seem radical to me.

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It’s more complicated than what it seems.

Let’s say they are slowly changing… again. Don’t get confused from some “fake news” you can read and hear around the world.

We blew Julianek’s journal with a politically incorrect off topic. We probably should fork it into another thread.

Yup, forked. Thanks for continuing this discussion in the coffee section of the forum :slight_smile:

Hey @Julianek, one of your favourite authors wrote a new book, and made in it an argument for controlled immigration:

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Thanks. As always, a very balanced argument.

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