What's the best way to "extract" money from your company and put it in the stock market?

If you had around 100k in your company’s bank account which will not be needed and you’d want to invest this money long term (buy and hold) in the stock market, what would be the most tax efficient way to do it? You are also employed in your own company by the way.

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If you are already giving yourself the optimal salary (so your AHV/AVS contribution is at least 50% of what you would pay as a non working person etc), give yourself a dividend. If you have reserves from capital contributions (I assume you don’t), use them as much as you can for the dividend (there is new limitations since last year), it would not ne taxed. If you only have reserves from income of the company, then you will pay taxes but less taxes because you own more than 10% of the company.

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I have no idea if I am or not :sweat_smile: On the payslips it says my AHV contributions are 5.3 % of my gross salary which amounts to 265 chf/month.

Does that include 100k minimum share capital that was used to open the AG? If so, then yes, this 100k is that money.

So I could just give myself 50k dividend and it would be completely tax free?

It will get taxed as income, but as you are holding >10% of the company, the taxes are reduced by 30%.

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So if I bought shares in the company I worked for, and I had at least 10%, there would be some preferential taxation?

I defined my salary as 150k, because that is the maximum value that is covered by the unemployment insurance or sth. I don’t know, just needed to come up with a reasonable value.

Then I am still usually left with over 50k per year of income, that I also pay out as salary (“bonus”). This is then taxed and social contributions are deducted. In the end, I pay over 60k for this.

Now you tell me, if I became a shareholder in my company (boss has mentioned that they want to make it possible), would I be able to save taxes? Can you tell me exactly how this works or point me to some link?

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DBG Art. 20 Absatz 1bis

https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1991/1184_1184_1184/de#art_20

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Thanks. I’d like to see a sample calculation, for example for 50k. So in this case the company pays income tax, idk 10%? Then I pay 70% of my marginal income tax (idk 40%?). 50k * 90% * (1 - 70% * 40%) = 50k * 65%

For payment as salary, there have to be the employers+employees contributions paid, but some of this money goes to pillar 2. Then comes the income tax. I need to fetch some real numbers to see how big the savings would be.

You can’t go below CHF 100k share capital in your AG, so no, if I understand your case correctly you cannot pay yourself that dividend tax free. If you had more than CHF 100k, you could also reduce to that amount by way of capital reduction (which would then be tax free).

One more thing: if this was a dividend, would the company not have to pay it proportionally to all shareholders?

I guess that’s why larger companies pay a large part of compensation in stock. In case of a small company, who would I sell these shares to?

I’m not sure I understand your situation, as you seem to be in charge of the company (calling it your company) but are not currently the owner? So take everything with a grain of salt…

Just wanted to add in general: If you pay yourself some CHF 200k in salary from your own company, that is definitively not optimized. In most cases, an adequate mix of dividends and income is the best solution. And yes, if you own said company, you might get preferential tax treatment on the dividends (degree varies by canton).

But capital reduction is a one off thing right? We’re talking about long term solutions here. (or that’s what i’m interested in)

Yes, that only works until you are back at CHF 100k minium share capital (assuming you were above that at one point).

Correct (by share of capital, not necessarily votes if you have multiple share classes)

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I call it my company the same as I would call it my school. I have no shares in it, yet. But as I mentioned, my boss mentioned that there will come an option for a partner program. I’d need to buy some shares of the company. It’s a bit tricky to calculate the fair value of a company that does not produce anything, only provides external IT workforce.

A short comparison dividends vs salary is available here

https://www.vermoegenszentrum.ch/ratgeber/wissensbeitrage/firmenkunden/steueroptimierung-fur-unternehmer-lohn-oder-dividende.html

Interesting presentation in French here with some calculations and comparisons

http://www.pkf.swiss/media/10044806/présentation-rffa-par-pkf-fiduciaire-sa.pdf

It’s focused on Geneva but you should be able to get the same kind of presentation for your canton with Google. Try “Steuerreform und die AHV-Finanzierung” or “STAF” with additional key words like dividende and lohne.

Ok then it’s NOT one off, if I can pay myself in shares (instead of salary) and then reduce capital of the company. Can you do that long term? Each year issue new stock, then reduce capital? Or is it not how it works?

Btw which canton is relevant? My domicile or the company’s? The company is in ZG, I’m in ZH.

If you are paying yourself in new shares, you will pay taxes.

Yes, you could issue new shares every year, and, having then more than CHF 100k share capital also reduce your share capital every year. But that makes no sense. If you pay yourself in shares, that would be income too at the moment you are granted those newly created shares.

As I am still confused by your setup: Are you the only employee in this company, did they set it up just for you?

Also: Your residence is relevant for the dividend taxation, not the company’s.

As 1742 has said, you can’t distribute the minimum capital of 100k. Not only that, but you can’t even distribute the money from the general reserve (except the amount that exceed 50% of the capital), unless the company is defined as a holding company in its goal (art. 671 OR/CO).

There are two partners and some 8 employees.

But would an income in shares be subject to social contributions, same as regular salary?

Since taxes are reduced, is it then better to pay myself 50k in dividends compared to giving myself a salary increase for the same amount?

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