VIAC or ValuePension (FinPension) for 2nd Pillar (vested benefits)

I have no clue about that.

My story which is not common is:
I used to be a cross boarder worker and have withdrawn my 2nd pillar to buy my main residence in France.

I moved to CH and sold it. Viac didn’t want my money for the 2nd pillard refund at the time so I’ve puted it by FP with 85% equities I think I saw it on the mandatory part.

A year after as we bought our main residence here in Switzerland I transfered from FP to VIAC. As it came from a VB it was ok to them. To my surprise it’s full considered as non mandatory so 100% equity allowed. This money is pledged for our ome loan.

Talking with others bankers they were all pretty chilled about a large sum of money was sitting on VB and not to enployer pension plan :sweat_smile:
We all know it’s a bit borderline here but I think it’s more common that we think!

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I think it is common as someone I know (in real life, not on FIRE forums) told me he did this.

Limitations

Finpension
Stocks max. 99%
Canada max. 99%
SMI max. 50% but can choose 2 SMI ETF’s, with max. 99%.

→ essentially no limitations. You could even invest it all in Canada ETF for example. (didn’t test everything, but I assume it would be same for EM, etc.)
It limits the SMI ETF to 50% (At first I thought to limit the weights in those 3 big individual companies - Roche, Novartis and Nestle), but it actually allows to combine UBS SMI ETF with Swisscanto SMI ETF up to 99%. So, really no limitations (speaking of stock ETF’s, I didn’t try 99% weird stuff like Crypto.

Viac Oblig. / Mandatory
US Pf max. 35%
Nasdaq 100 max. 35%
World ex CH max. 80%
Stocks max. 80%
CH Stocks no minimum

→ minor limitations, the max. 80% stocks… also individual ETF’s like SMI, SPI max. 35% each.

Viac Über-Oblig / non-mandatory
US Pf max. 35%
Nasdaq 100 max. 35%
Canada max. 35%
UK max. 35%
EU max. 35%
World ex CH max. 99%
Stocks max. 99%
CH Stocks no minimum
EM max. 40%
single ETFs often max. 20%, US and Nasdaq max. 35%

→ almost no limitations

As I’m looking for a third provider, Frankly below is indeed one option:

Frankly
All in Fee 0.44%
Höchste Aktienquote mit Swisscanto (CH) IPF III Vorsorge Fonds 75 Passiv NT CHF
Strong 75 Index Die Fremdwährungspositionen werden teilweise in CHF abgesichert, sodass der Anteil an ungesicherten Fremdwährungspositionen maximal 30% erreichen kann.
Stocks CH ~27% + WexCH ~47% = ~75%
Bonds ~12%
RE CH 5%
Gold etc 7%

→ limitations max. 75% stocks.
Also some hedging (not clearly defined how much too), some bonds, RE and gold forced onto you.
I will investigate further, it just doesn’t feel as “clean” as the Viac and Fp offers.

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Essentially no limits on Viac non-mandatory. See also my other response to @Brndete I made a few minute ago above.

I don’t know what information has to be shared during the transfer for legal reasons, but here is what I found out during my transfers of Pension Fund money from my old pension fund to VB of Viac and Finpension.

I transferred half my PF to Viac and half to Finpension I. The mandatory/non-mandatory split was 40:60 in both halves. My PF said the 40:60 split was defined/fixed. The 50:50 split to the 2 providers was free for me to choose, I could have chosen 100:0, 20:80 anything, but both would contain 40:60 mand/non-mand.

Viac (50% of my Pension Fund money)
Viac states the following for transfers to its VB accounts, on the “transfer form” that they give you to give to your Pension Fund.

"WICHTIG Die bisherige Freizügigkeitseinrichtung/Pensionskasse wird gebeten, an folgende Adresse:
*Freizügigkeitsstiftung der WIR Bank, Team VIAC, Postfach, 4002 Basel *
eine detaillierte Austrittsabrechnung mit mindestens den folgenden Angaben zuzustellen
*- Obligatorischer Anteil der FZL *
*- FZL im Alter von 50 *
*- FZL bei Heirat / Eintragung *
*- Datum Heirat / Eintragung *
*- Daten zu WEF-Vorbezügen *
*- Daten zu WEF-Verpfändungen *
- sowie Einkäufe
Ist der Transfer bei VIAC eingetroffen, liegt das Geld auf dem Durchlaufskonto. Sobald eine detaillierte Austrittsabrechnung der bisherigen Vorsorgeeinrichtung vorliegt, wird die Einzahlung dem Segment Obligatorium bzw. Überobligatorium zugordnet. Nach der Zuteilung wird das Geld automatisch mit dem nächsten wöchentlichen Trading Day in die gewählte Strategie investiert. Ohne Erhalt der Austrittsabrechnung erfolgt keine Zuteilung und somit auch keine Investition."

My Pension Fund initially didn’t (or not in the form that Viac wanted) inform Viac of the Mandatory/Non-mandatory split of my funds, the funds were frozen for a few days, and only a week later it was invested.
As my Pension Fund was that of a big SMI company (who should get things right the first time), I’m really not sure if all this info is “standard”.

My VB at Viac is in one Stiftung, with two segments, and one can choose different strategies per segment. The mandatory has some limitations (max. 80% shares), the non-mandatory has no limitations that I am aware of. I, however, have chosen strong Swiss-bias at Viac due to FX costs, so have CH funds of >50%, so may simply not be aware of some CHF limitations.
These VB funds in 2 segments at Viac are not split (in the sense of “splitting”), they are at 1 Stiftung and when I transfer to a new employer, or get it out at 65 y.o., it is one pot with the information Mandatory/Non-mandatory split 40:60 “attached” to it.

Finpension (other 50% of my Pension Fund money)
Fp most probably got the same initial information from my old Pension Fund as Viac, but invested the funds on Day 1 in one pot and never asked about the Mandatory/Non-mandatory %.
I’d say, Finpension does not know these man/non-man %. Although it could be that they invested on Day 1, while clarifying this information with my old P.F. As there is only one pot, it is not essential to know on Day 1 (unlike Viac).
When withdrawing, it will be in one pot, maybe with the information Mandatory/Non-mandatory split “attached”, maybe without this information?

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In my experience I would consider all you describe above as standard (that the info has to be shared is regulated and mandatory). One week to get the information sorted out and the money invested is actually quite fast.

fp is really pushing the law to its very limit. But, any VB provider who doesn’t have different rules applied to mandatory / non-mandatory doesn’t technically have to wait for the information prior to investing. They will ultimately need the information anyway, also because they will have to provide it once you eventually withdraw that money again (this additional info should never be lost and always should remain attached to your VB).

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Errm, that would be nice :slight_smile: but Viac VB has a management fee of about 0.4% p.a. for high-stock-fund strategies. It’s very comparable to their 3a fees. It’s actually capped at 0.4% (which includes management fee, transactions, external fund costs, but probably not FX (?))

As to your questions:

a) Mandatory vs. non-mandatory BVG max. stock allocation restrictions: Is it possible to transfer non-mandatory funds from another VB provider and open a 100% unrestricted non-mandatory account at Viac?
b) Restrictions on individual fund selection (e.g. can I choose to invest only in MSCI World, or only emerging markets?)
c) Currency hedging restrictions: At Viac 3a, I believe you can now hold 100% non currency-hedged equity funds. At Viac VB too?
d) Alleged currency exchange markup shenanigans: Can they be avoided?
e) Auto-rebalancing: Can it be deactivated?

a) see my response to @Brndete a few minutes ago
b) ditto
c) I don’t know, I have >50% SMI/SPI CHF ETF’s at Viac VB, so this restriction didn’t pop up.
EDIT - at Viac VB you can choose 80% (mand.) and 99% (non-mand.) CS World ex CH IPF unhedged fund. So, yes, no hedging forced on you.
d) I don’t think it can be totally avoided. It’s one time, usually about 0.2-0.3% in my experience, so not a killer-shenanigan. One way to avoid = I have put a Swiss-bias at Viac and am OK with that bias, thus avoiding currency exchange.
e) Yes at Fp, but No at Viac. The rebalancing at Viac kicks in when the deviation goes over 2%, so it’s definitely not a weekly rebalancing. In my experience, maybe once or twice a year… Maybe if you have strongly diverting classes, it could trigger re-balancing more often.
EDIT - as Swisscanto or CS World ex CH - IPF is possible to 80% (mandatory) and 99% (non-mandatory), essentially a re-balancing at Viac can now be avoided if you choose these funds. They are in USD though, so you’d have the one-time costs at buying and selling.

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Thanks a lot.

Sounds like close to no limitations regarding my ideas from both, at least on the non-mandatory part.

To add, I did try VIAC, which allowed me to specify the 80% mandatory part, before asking me to go through the whole registration process which I didn’t want to do, yet.
Within the 80% limit, it seemed possible to add 35% UBS and 35% Swisscanto Canada, to stick with that example.
Yet only up to those 80% stocks in total. Could add some “Listed PE” ETF or high-yield bonds for the rest, which is considered more diversified then 100% stocks :smiley:

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Very simple - by going 100% cash… :wink: the fees are proportional to your fund-invested amount, the fees increase approximately linearly from 0% for 100% cash to 0.4% for 25% cash / 75% invested. Thereafter (at >75% invested), it is flat i.e. the fees are capped at 0.4%.

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