Just a side note: if you get fired but still have to go to work for 2-3 months, remember they must give you by law time for interviews/sending CVs.
2 Likes
Sure, thank you. I do know that. And I will be eligible to unemployment benefits if I do not find a job until my notice period ends.
I am just worried about getting a shitty Zeugnis and not being able to have my boss as reference in the future
Thanks!
Thanks for your words
I wish you a positive outcome !
I thought that in general it is forbidden that they give you a “shit Zeugnis”. You supposedly can contest any wording you disagree with.
But maybe someone else has an idea how real this concern is?
1 Like
This forum is, and should hopefully remain, a safe and respectful space. Toxic and/or aggressive messages such as this one are not helping.
7 Likes
I share this view. But I also believe people should feel free to speak their mind and not be afraid of getting censored. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out, I’ll keep that in mind.
1 Like
There is certainly a balance to find I agree. I was replying to Ardius by the way, i don’t feel you said anything offensive.
I know, I’m speaking as a mod. I read that comment before and I thought it didn’t cross the line.
Read thru your situation. First really sorry to hear that, sometimes this kind of things just happens…
About your “Zeugnis” - your employer can’t give you a bad one by law. But anyhow, this “Zeugnis” doesn’t reflect the last few months, but your full time, where you for sure already received some yearly MbO reflection back.
Normally you will let go with the comment of a “new restruction of organization”, so it will be no blame to your effort in any kind. And you can explain this easy to your next employer by dropping “Corona” into the discussion. Anyway good luck to you!
1 Like
I was “restructured” not long ago. It wasn like “sorry, man. we are just cutting positions. yours is one of the listed”. Is it fair? No, from my POV.
Takaways:
Zeugnis is a BS. I apply for around 10-15 positions monthly and never was asked for my reference at all!
Don’t bother about it. It matters only in a good times. IN VUCA like we have today what matters is your network, not a hypocritical piece of paper which only soothes your own pain.
Package - fight for your right to maximize benefit. How? HRs know in advance everything a vulnerable unprepared employee can say and ready to parry anything you say. So get prepared yourself. Don’t bring your lawyer but knowledge you get from your lawyer to the table.
My package was ok, and I started applying even before the pre-notice of termination. Now 2 years after I’m still searching, and no-one gives a dime to Zeugnis, my highly ranked MBA diploma, or experience.
My RAV agent says - sorry. wrong time wrong place.
On the termination meeting my boss, been backed by HR, tried to save his face by “well here is the paaaackaaage…”. My first reaction was to express everything I think about it. But bravely holding myself, I pivoted immediately to promote myself to the HR and learn if there are other opportunities. I know, stupid thought, assuming they want you to fire - not to rehire. But I tried.
Fazit - just focus on the package - they want to fire you - not to hurt you and themselves by a legal war. Find a win-win option.
I’d say 12 months of compensation is where fairness starts.
Good luck!
Thats not irrational if you RELOCATE positions (not people) to a cheaper locations.
I’m just gonna go and say it: I believe it should be every employer’s right to fire his employee without reason. Employment should not be like some kind of marriage. You shouldn’t have to explain yourself. And if you want more protection then negotiate this to be included extra in your contract.
I have a feeling some people need to feel like they’re kids and their employer is taking care of them, or something…
3 Likes
On the other hand - companies should hire responsibly too. Here I’m not talking about KMU.
The society pays for firing. An article in some newspaper stated that RAV would run out of funds end of July 2020 thanks to Covid.
Ultimate capitalism is not going to help the world to sustain.
Yeah, do you know what you’re saying? You’re saying: think twice before hiring someone, or before offering him that salary. This only raises unemployment.
Look at countries with high employee protection, like Spain, France, Italy. It especially sucks for younger people without experience.
7 Likes
Just “negotiate more protection”?
Well, I am just gonna go and say it:
That’s easily said from having the luxury and higher ground of making 18k+ a month (or top 2% of earners).
1 Like
Ultimate capitalism is dead. Legal entities outlive human beings. Legal entities need human beings to survive and vice versa. Probably, Harrari’s book can explain better.
This is asymmetric situation when legal entities always win. Unless you are a Cobol programmer and everybody needs you to update their old mainframe at the heart of their banking system. )
I’m not sure I understand how you are doing your research. Sure, network is the most powerful and useful tool one can have but Zeugnis has never been something I’ve been asked to show (emphasis on asked). I just put the relevant ones in my dossier and, provided it’s a positive review of my skills or backs useful experience, it might help (no idea if any recruiter has ever read it but I have a good ratio of dossiers sent to interviews).
Any chance you could use your MBA and experience to launch a competitor company and show these legal entities what for? I know I’ve thought about it.
I don’t know what kind of “higher ground” I have apart from my savings, but I thought that is the goal of everyone on this forum. I have no benefits and can be “fired” on the spot, like “don’t come tomorrow” and of course without “severance package”. My contract has to be renewed every 6 months. So much for higher ground.
Let me clarify: my response was a bit stronger than I would like, but it was a reaction to the sense of entitlement I saw in the previous reply.
Regarding special conditions: I know people in Siwtzerland with 25 or even 30 days of holidays, even though 20 is the minimum. I know tons of people in Poland with private medical insurance covered by the employer. So what I meant to say is: if you care about job security then look for jobs that provide it. But if we make it a standard for every job, then we will make it hard for unskilled and unexperienced (young) people to even get a job.
2 Likes
Competing with a Pharma giant? I’m afraid my MBA is not THAT cool 
Although its a dream to run own fintech startup or a finance/consulting business. Share my contact if you have anyone interested.
1 Like
Contractors vs “Permanent” employees are not sharing same psychology.
“Permanents” fully rely on their employers and giving significant part of their lives and passions in return for eventually false sense of security, while Contractors are somewhat entrepreneurs who are prepared for change.
“Second Curve” book implies the future of employment is rather a flexible Contractor with several customers than a permanent staff. Perhaps we drifting to that direction. But not yet close.
So when leadership plots another restructure and than showers rest of employees cold its ALWAYS hurts bad, their families, their parents… So the damage is substantial. Even early retirements are not always happy end.
What about the leadership? Leadership knows asymmetrically in advance - they arrange their spots under the sun upfront. Is time advantage fair?
Yes, corporations have to have right to fire, but make it equally fair and transparent.
3 Likes