Should I move into Switzerland?

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22

There clearly is one for you: the US.

Best bet financially, mid- to long-term.
You’re going to find a place with a warm climate there.
Also, the real estate market suits you.

:point_right:t2: The only question is whether you have the gut to go and the chops to make it (to) there.

Switzerland seems rather a decent compromise that you might settle for (also, it’s never far from Italy).
And you can forget about Canada, Norway and the Netherlands, due to the weather: Much worse than Switzerland in winter. Also they’re quite flat (except Norway).

23

Norway is worse in Oslo, but for example in Bergen, due to Gulf Stream, the winters are mild. It just rains there all the time.

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24

It depends where in Canada…

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25

I think you will find the salary-to-property-price ratio works out about the same as Italy. That is to say, the higher salary you earn will likely make up the higher cost of buying a home. That said, I don’t know what the market for healthcare professionals is like in Italy. My assumption is based on the salary of my sister who is a healthcare professional in Germany.

Mortgage interest rates have been exceptionally low in recent years and there is no clear indication of that changing soon. In Switzerland, you only have to amortize 1/3 of the propety’s value - and doing this can have tax advantages. Of course, you will still want to calculate whether buying or renting makes more sense. You can use this calculator: https://www.moneyland.ch/en/rent-or-buy-calculator

26

The major metropolitan areas are quite flat (and Quebec City and Calgary aren‘t that far away from mountains but get freezing cold winter).

There largely remains Vancouver - bu then maybe he better should learn Mandarin (or Cantonese) Chinese. :wink:

27

With AU I have 2 main problems: 1) remoteness, both in (sistance between the main cities) and out (distance from the world), and 2) from what I gather on the web houses cost comparatively more then in US (meaning that a higher % of your income will go to pay for it), meaning less disposable income in the end - but is this true?

Another point regarding both US and AU is their relatively weak currency compared to the CHF, which means that to get the same feeling of “when I go on vacation I feel so rich” I need to earn comparatively more (meaybe having to work more hours?). So globally I could potentially earn more in US/AU, but more inefficiently = with less free time.

Back to weather/climate topic, my city has around 2k hours of sun per year, Zurich would be 1,5k. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_sunshine_duration
On the other hand Florida is said to be a humid swamp during summer.

Putting everything together it feels the are all more or less equivalent. Daaaaamn :sweat_smile:

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28

I’ve never seen Snow in California nor Sydney… so I wouldn’t call them the “same”…

29

I mean “the same” because the pros and cons I see for each of them are not enough to make me lean confidently on one of them.

30

There’s a lot to see in California! I’ve seen the ocean, beaches, rainforest, desert, mountains and even snow. There are multiple ski resorts too (around Lake Tahoe and Bear Mountain for instance). The sheer scale of that state surprises me every time.

That said, I wouldn’t call those options the same either. They may look like it on paper but actually living there can be very different. Florida and California for instance have quite a different vibe. Also, Florida has no capital gains tax for private individuals…

31

Coincidentally I was looking at taxes in the US in this very moment :grin:

CAL has another good thing for me: that sunsets are on the “right-side” (meaning that you can see the sun dip on the ocean, as it should be :rofl:), Miami has it on the “wrong-side”.
This is beyond pickyness, but make me laugh! - which is important while entering the 11th month of lock-down.

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Anyway, I think that I’ll come back in more or less one year and revamp the question, since it appears to me the the US are (or could) be having one of the biggest internal migration of the last decades (with heavily taxes HCOL big cities to lower taxed ones like TX and FL), so this could reshuffle the US situation quite a bit in the mid-term.

33

Thanks for sharing. Looks like some countries offer something similar but not the same. I wonder what happens after the 30 years… you need to buy it or sell and move out? If you need to buy, that is not interest only (just that you don’t make repayments months, but in the end), IMO:

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True, it’s somewhat restrictive the mortgages here (20%, and can’t go over 33% of income with 5% theoretical interest, and I think maintenance costs are also considered). I am not an economist, but I still thing this is inflationary because it allows you to borrow more than if you needed to repay in full (all other things equal).

34

But all other things are not equal.

5% of the mortgage + 1% of the value of the home + amortization payments needs to be smaller than 30-35% of income.

That is the reason you need to earn more in Switzerland than for example in the US to get a 800’000 mortgage on a 1M home.

I’m also not sure what they mean with “infinite mortgage”? Do they simply mean the libor or saron mortgage?

35

Infinite mortgage meaning that once you pass 33.33% in own capital you don’t have to pay back the mortgage any further.

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36

Yes, but it is also possible to renew a interest only mortgage in the UK or Denmark.

37

Interesting thread, lots of good advice. If i were to choose a country to live in the future, real estate would be the least of my concerns.
@Pier
First finish your degree I would recommend. As you said you are already behind your ideal path by 7 years that’s a lot and lots of lost saving potential. You will also be in a profession which will see a lots of changes and government involvement in the future as health care spending is unsustainable with an aging population and indebted governments.

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38

@beerzilla I agree with every sentence of yours but one: I do care about the RE market. I just like houses, both architectonically (even when they are cheap, I’m not just talking about McMansions) and as a investments (sinche they are the easiest to leverage, aren’t they). But are they a distraction? eh…

The US are fashinating also because they are the hardest path, and I would love to be able to say to myself that I made it. It would already be a good life achivement, satisfying per se. But doing that to the end up earning the same money I could have made in CH would be disappointing.

Besides the changes on the govntm’s side, let’s trow in that AI could drastically change radiology and other diagnostic specializations. But nobody knows how/when yet.

I’ll problem open a thread for a specific advice on my RE situation.

39

Real estate ist interesting and a decent in investment, but not at your stage. You need to stay flexible. I have lived and worked in NYC, Canada, Germany and here, what a nightmare if i had invested in RE. You can leverage many assets, just look at leveraged ETFs. In the long run i think the most important tax for us is capital gains, which is 0 here in Switzerland. This is much more important than real estate and mortgages, where the differences between countries are quite small.

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40

Hello,
just my 2 cents as a doctor who DID move to Switzerland after medical school and still lives here part-time with my doctor husband… don’t waste your energy worrying about real estate, it will really be the least of your concerns mainly because for the first 5 years or so, you will probably be moving from hospital to hospital anyway, so renting. (just like almost all of us did)

You WILL have plenty of opportunities to live frugally and you will actually have to, because depending on the Kanton you work in (residents’ salaries are regulated), you might start out earning less than 5k net per month like we did. Base salary is usually around 6k, taxes can significantly affect that but rent is even more important. We lived in the Personalhaus in shared accomodation for several years, which was not always fun but really cheap.

A couple of years down the line, still in residency, the next huge expense is childcare, unless you defer children to your late 30s which we didn’t want to do. We spent ± one salary only on rent, childcare and Krankenkassen, leaving the second salary for living expenses and saving.

That being said, once you do finish your specialization your salary jumps to 10k per month (minimum and x13), which is a huge raise and a fantastic opportunity to save. The 500k you read in here, I assure you, is NOT a median salary for radiologists working in a regular hospital. 130-160k would be much closer to reality for most people, but I am sure there are Chefärzte or specialists in private hospitals who earn 500k or more.

This is not to rain on your parade at all :wink:, with our regular salaries we have been able to save a lot of money in the past 17 years, especially after finishing our specialization (FMH). Overtime helped as well, working odd hours, Ferienvertretung and so on. There will be opportunities, don’t worry.

You can certainly be very Mustachian in Switzerland, although the tax office will sometimes wonder why you have so much money and you’ll have to explain your living expenses. If you want to earn far more than the median, that is also possible after specialization.

Don’t feel bad about being a few years behind others - life is more important than that, and the past can’t be changed. Look forward, you’re in an interesting and pandemic-safe profession with wonderful opportunities!

Susanna

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41

@beerzilla @Susanna
Thank you again for answering.

When I mean that I’m interested in RE I certainly don’t mean that I’ll be going around flipping houses during my residency, but after that, want to be able to do that. Maybe I’ll not do it, depending on many things, but having the possibility of doing it is important.

I absolutely don’t want children, and even if I did I would prefer to have them after residency. I don’t care if I’m going to be “old”, my parents were both “old” when they had me (36 her 43 him) and I actually consider myself lucky, rather than not.

Citazione
We spent ± one salary only on rent, childcare and Krankenkassen, leaving the second salary for living expenses and saving.

Now, this is worrying a bit. Or at least if would be if a wanted kids :upside_down_face:

I don’t have anything else to say, besides thanking you again for all the info!

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