Gender disparity in income & wealth

Honestly, these might mostly be positive in today’s regulated economy.
Maybe Credit Suisse wouldn’t be where it is right now, if it had more people in powerful positions that are compliant and didn’t use so much discretion in their decisions.
As a shareholder you might value this quite a lot, over short-term gains from dubious practices.

But I really don’t know who would be better at the job absent discrimination.

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And men don’t know how to handle emotions, would rather get in a fight, and are often totally irrational. Not really traits for someone with responsabilities.

Completely the opposite in Zurich. Never seen any men in leadership position at any daycare center. And the vast majority of leadership positions for schools are held by women, so much so that at the last election a retiring woman was recommending to elect a man as replacement, to even the gender imbalance at least a little bit.

Furthermore, my daughter is learning to play chess and has visited a computer programming course during summer holidays. She is completely free to explore her interests and I have never, ever heard anyone complaining about that, neither to her nor to me. Moreover I find it unthinkable that this would ever happen. Girls (in Zurich) will now have a far harder time if they want to become a full-time housewife than if they want to have a successful career. No teacher would dare arguing for the former or against the latter.

If anything I’d worry about my son. There are lots of special programs for girls who are also already on average more successful in school. To my knowledge there are no special courses for boys.

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Quite a few sweeping generalisations there that I don’t agree with at all

I feel this would be a more productive debate with some intelligent females present instead of in a mustachian internet forum between mainly male IT and finance geeks :slight_smile:

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Great, I’ll tell my husband to carry the next child

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I’m very happy to read about this and for your daughter. Just out of curiosity, do you think is normal for all of Zurich or is specific to a certain population ie kids of high income, in specific neighbourhood with similar high income families? I think various countries and/or population type (farmer vs citizen) are at different stages of women emancipation, and this still reflects unto your communal life. But it would be great if this would be a widespread phenomenon that starts in cities and will spread everywhere

I can confirm that as a university professor in a STEM field I have to deal weekly with BS that’s all outlined above and more, and also with established “boys clubs” that make it harder to “play politics” to advance your career. Not much to debate.

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…says the guy who sees “stereotyping and bias in the system everywhere”?

Without getting into the technicalities of whom gets to actually bear a child:
Having kids is a choice nowadays.
Do you feel outside pressure to have a child??
I don’t think there’s much pressure on couples to have one (in Switzerland)

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Maybe this leads us to the million dollar question that we should try to answer first.
Doesn’t there seem to be a glaring gender disparity among users of the forum?

In essence, this is a how-to-get-rich-(enough)-quick forum.
And I sure think there’s no shortage of women who like money.
And the independence and purchasing power it provides.

So why are there so few women on the forum (especially among the most prolific posters)?

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The real question is why is it so heavily IT dominated. Because why are they so few X (where X is a minority in IT) will probably lead to the same answer.

(Why not more entrepreneurs, or teachers, or doctors, etc.)

Speaking as a man, that’s an assumption I couldn’t have made before reading this thread. We tend to assume the person in front of us to be a man but they’re not necessarily. This could also partly explain that/if there are more men than women on this board: acting as if we are addressing men all the time can favour a feeling of homeliness for men and less for women, making us more attractive to male viewers than to women.

Of course, other explanations can (and I think do) hold true at the same time. @nabalzbhf’s IT centric might not be off and might be generalized a bit more: if there is a gender gap and women are generally less paid or in less career centric professions, FIRE can seem like less achievable of a goal to them, or, of course, they could just be in less paying career fields because they’re less interested in big money in the first place (speaking as a “might”, trying to cover a broad amount of possibilities).

Another explanation could be that FIRE could be taken as mainly a flight forward by people burnt out by their professional life and women may be more skilled at finding balance in it and making it sustainable in and of itself (which could also explain the lesser pay, if the wage isn’t the dominant factor in the choice of a job/career).

Potential explanations are many and they go both ways. I, personnaly, don’t know what is true and what is not regarding gender inequalities in Switzerland and what is truly going on (there’s some prejudice going on toward men too). All I can do is try to act as to not let gender enter my own judgment when I am called for action. On here, that means assuming the person behind the avatar participating in the same topics I do could be a woman just as much as a man.

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It could be that IT & FIRE go hand in hand. I could think of some reasons:

  • IT pays relatively much, and from early on, allowing to build up savings quickly
  • IT is a fast-changing profession, you have to learn new tech or risk becoming obsolete; this makes FIRE all the more attractive
  • IT is highly abstract, you often build just a piece of some backend, not seeing any end result you can be proud of
  • you’re glued to the screen without much social interaction; this could leave you loving the money, but not feeling excited about the job, after a few years

But I don’t know by how much can that influence the overall forum demographics. That IT is male-dominated is clear.

But if you look at some public examples of FIRE couples (YouTube channels, blogs), it’s usually the guy who is crunching the numbers, laying out the whole plan and philosophy, and the girl just tags along. Might not be true for all, just the ones I saw.

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I’d be interested in which part you think is bullshit and why. (ETA: Except for the “pressures on women to give birth”-part, which you already noted :slight_smile: .)

That’s actually an interesting point.

When I first joined the forum I was pretty much agnostic about what gender split to expect. Then after a lot of “my wife and I”-posts, my baseline expectation shifted to most members being male. Which is kind of a self-reinforcing belief.

A majority is male → you expect other members to be male → the forum becomes less homely to (potential) female members

One way to shift that might be to increase the visibility of female members slightly. But I often find these attempts come across as pretty awkward.

(Side note: Your name “@Wolverine” made me think you were likely female. Which is strange because the fictional character is male. But the association of “-ine” endings with female was so strong, that I falsely updated in your case. :smiley: )

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Personally, I doubt that I‘ve ever publicly disclosed my sex or gender or identified as one online here. At least you‘d be hard-pressed to find something. I also try not to assume gender online - unless someone has chosen a name or avatar clearly indicating or supporting gender.

That said, from the posts I‘ve read where people did (or based on the reasonable assumption that most people speaking of their „girlfriends“ or „wives“ are indeed male) members and posting activity really are male-dominated, I think.

Fair point, not literally “everywhere” but the dice is loaded against women.

I have worked for many, great female leaders in Multi-National companies and there is absoutely no reason why women don’t have the traits to be great CEO.

A few external examples, come to mind, I am sure many people - myself included - would rate Jacinda Ardern or Angela Merkel as more inspiring leaders than some of the strong, risk taking, alpha male types we had recently: Trump, Boris Johson, Putin, Berlusconi, Erdogan

There are 74 posts in this thread, I wont go over all of them again and extract specific quotes. What I mean is that women do face all kinds of obstacles still nowadays. It can range from backhanded compliments like “great you got this research grant, it must help because you are a woman” (“or because you are a mother” or any other secondary reason) to people second guessing your opinion on a topic you are an expert on. This simply does not happen to my male colleagues. And the worst is that people do not realize, this includes myself as well. Often I only realize something “off” happened when I reflect on the day later on while commuting home or in the evening. I think this is because the culture we grew up in.
Compared with my husband, my career is more advanced (more senior with higher pay), yet people do expect I work part time and for my husband it would be inconceivable to work part-time. I know of more couples in my environment where the woman works part time but makes more money, and the husband works 100%. So this is really a cultural thing and not just “oh the man makes more money, so the woman cuts down the hours”.

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To me it seems like everyone just assumes working more hours and being higher up on the career ladder is a desirable thing. I’d love to have a wife who makes more money than I do and I’d be happy to cut back working hours or stop working when kids arrive. To be honest I’m a bit jealous of women here. Why would anyone want to be the next Elon, Bill, Jeff? Sure I’d take the money, fame, success, but I would not be willing to put in the work necessary to reach such a position.

Pretty much all of my female friends don’t care the least about career and just enjoy life. It seems there is almost no pressure on a woman to be successful at work. Whereas the value of a man in our society seems to depend a lot on how much he earns.

There is so much pressure on a man to be successful. While women seem to be able to just study what they are interested in, because they won’t need to feed a family. I really want this too!

Just my two cents and what I see in my social circle (everyone was at university and I live in a city).

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I didn’t read the article but I’m in general familiar with Jordan Petersons points of view as I’ve seen a lot of him on Youtube. He says differences are not only cultural/societal, but also biological. I don’t think he says there are no culutural/societal factors in play, when it comes to differences in outcome between women and men. Actually I remember a video where he says the opposite. But he also says it’s difficult to separate biological factors from cultural factors as culture was/is also influenced by biological factors.

Jordan says, that in societies where cultural differences are actively fought and eliminated (like Scandinavia), the biological differences kind of overcompensate for the lack thereof. So, like… in a World devoid of gender stereotypes and assigned roles, people instinctively cling to what suits them more biologically. At least that’s the theory.