# Frankly for pillar 3a?
**URL:** https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249
**Category:** Banks, Insurances & Third Pillar
**Created:** [February 14, 2020, 11:51am UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249 "2020-02-14T11:51:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Bojack](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/Bojack)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2020, 10:52am UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/24 "2020-03-20T10:52:13Z")
If Frankly is hedging 70% to CHF then it’s a big negative long-term performance impact.
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### Author:  [@wapiti](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/wapiti)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2020, 10:58am UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/25 "2020-03-20T10:58:44Z")
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. 70% is in CHF, but this also included Swiss stocks.
Around 60% of foreign stock are hedged, which like you and I said has a big impact on returns
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### Author:  [@OrientExpress](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/OrientExpress)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/26 "2020-03-20T13:25:43Z")
Thanks for the comparison.
> [@wapiti](#):
>
> Frankly invests every day of the week
Where did you get this information from? Could not find it on the website/faq.
Thanks
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### Author:  [@wapiti](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/wapiti)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/27 "2020-03-20T14:04:08Z")
It’s an assumption on the parameters it’s written automatic invest as soon as the money is deposited.
But right, it’s written nowhere.
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### Author:  [@San\_Francisco](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/San_Francisco)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/28 "2020-03-20T19:53:08Z")
> [@wapiti](#):
>
> Based on the factsheet, it is not a fund of funds.
_“At least 51% of the fund’s assets are invested indirectly via target funds based on the fund-of-funds principle”_
[https://products.swisscanto.com/products/documents/kiids/CH0511961424/KIID\_CH0511961424\_CH\_EN.pdf](https://products.swisscanto.com/products/documents/kiids/CH0511961424/KIID_CH0511961424_CH_EN.pdf)
Am I missing something? 🤔
EDIT: Link corrected to VT units, but same wording
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### Author:  [@OrientExpress](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/OrientExpress)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 10:50am UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/30 "2020-03-21T10:50:38Z")
> [@San\_Francisco](#):
>
> EDIT: Link corrected to VT units, but same wording
If I understand correctly, it is NT not VT that is used by frankly.
> [@yakari](#):
>
> Do we agree that as long as Frankly uses ch-hedge and does not clearly show which indexes they follow Viac stays number 1 choice?
I agree. But my girlfriend is using VIAC 100%, so I am considering to have some of my 3a with frankly. The reasoning is just to never have everything in one basket. What do you think? You can call me stupid if you want.
@wapiti
[https://twitter.com/frankly\_zkb/status/1240925548836196352?s=21](https://twitter.com/frankly_zkb/status/1240925548836196352?s=21)
I don’t get their response. How should one ensure to have the sufficient account balance when everything is invested in the automated investment mode (can be chosen in the app).
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### Author:  [@wapiti](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/wapiti)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 11:29am UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/31 "2020-03-21T11:29:32Z")
@OrientExpress
Yes, NT is the correct share class. After checking again, it seems to be a fund of a fund, but the current structure has no impact on the fee.
It seems, they are using:
- Swisscanto (CH) IPF III Index Equity Fund MSCI® World ex Switzerland NTH CHF
- Swisscanto (CH) IPF III Index Equity Fund MSCI® World ex Switzerland NT USD
I agree with not all the same eggs in the basket, but 3a is quite secured.
There answer is not clear, I would assume they sell to have liquidity for the fees.
> [@yakari](#):
>
> Do we agree that as long as Frankly uses ch-hedge and does not clearly show which indexes they follow Viac stays number 1 choice?
Yes, hedging will have a big impact
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### Author:  [@Swisslife](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/Swisslife)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 11:45am UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/32 "2020-03-21T11:45:02Z")
Agreed - based on the research above as well as frankly’s website, VIAC still seems to be #1 choice.
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### Author:  [@male](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/male)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 12:17pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/33 "2020-03-21T12:17:00Z")
One aspect which I believe has not been discussed is the fact that Frankly charges 0.48% on the **total** amount of assets. If you for some reason choose to only invest 50% in a fund, then, well, the fee is still on the other 50% cash too (aka negatives rates). That’s a huge limitation. You can really only be 100% invested in Frankly, holding cash would be very expensive.
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### Author:  [@San\_Francisco](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/San_Francisco)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 12:57pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/34 "2020-03-21T12:57:57Z")
> [@OrientExpress](#):
>
> If I understand correctly, it is NT not _VT_ that is used by frankly.
> [@wapiti](#):
>
> Yes, NT is the correct share class.
>
> - Swisscanto (CH) IPF III Index Equity Fund MSCI® World ex Switzerland NTH CHF
> - Swisscanto (CH) IPF III Index Equity Fund MSCI® World ex Switzerland NT USD
I maintain it is the **VT** units:
1. Its IBAN CH0496470938 is part of the [link](https://products.swisscanto.com/products/en/Produkte/BVG-3-Anlagegruppen/Mixed/CH0496470938) on [frankly’s investment products](https://www.frankly.ch/en/investment-products.html) page, please also refer to the screenshot below.
2. Swisscanto’s [detailed sales prospectus](https://products.swisscanto.com/products/documents/document/CH0496470938/vp_swc-ch-vorsorgef_deu.pdf) states as such: “_Anteile der Anteilsklasse VT CHF sind thesaurierende Anteile, bei denen die Beteiligung den folgenden Institutionen der beruflichen Vorsorge (2. Säule) und der gebundenen individuellen Vorsorge 3a vorbehalten ist_”
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### Author:  [@San\_Francisco](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/San_Francisco)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 1:07pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/35 "2020-03-21T13:07:34Z")
PS: OK, the web site does give conflicting information, according to language version:
[German language version referring to **NT** units](https://www.frankly.ch/de/anlageprodukte.html)
[French language version referring to **VT** units](https://www.frankly.ch/fr/produits-de-placement.html)
[English language version referring to **VT** units](https://www.frankly.ch/en/investment-products.html)
Seems frankly a bit amateurish, for a supervised financial product by one of Switzerland’s most reputable and largest cantonal bank (pun intended), after all that pre-launch hype they tried to create.
Also, the fact that “portfolio” data is unavailable for the funds on Swisscanto’s web site doesn’t inspire much confidence in me.
**PPS** : Ignore the first part of this post. They must have quietly changed in on their web site, and the German version might still have been in my browser cache, indicating the NT units. However as of right now they are linking two different fund units (NT and VT) on their [german version](https://www.frankly.ch/de/anlageprodukte.html):
“Details aufrufen” is still linking to NT units as I’m writing this:
…whereas the text link in the preceding paragraph links to VT units.
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### Author:  [@OrientExpress](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/OrientExpress)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/36 "2020-03-21T13:53:22Z")
Okay, it’s a mess then. Inside the App if I check the account details it says NT as well.
NT would also correspond to what they write in their FAQ:
> Is the administrative fee and the TER (Total Expense Ratio) of the funds available in frankly 0.0%?
>
> The administrative fee is included in the all-in fee and is therefore 0.0%. The frankly investment products may also invest in Swiss real estate funds for income reasons. These exchange-traded funds in turn affect the TER. This means that the 0% cost funds used by frankly can also have a TER between 0.01% and 0.03%. In order to avoid charging you twice, we set the all-in fee lower accordingly from the outset. We promise to review the TER of real estate funds annually.
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### Author:  [@San\_Francisco](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/San_Francisco)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/37 "2020-03-21T14:13:24Z")
It’s the same for (for example) Moderate 45 Active:
[https://products.swisscanto.com/products/de/Produkte/BVG-3-Anlagegruppen/Gemischt/CH0238052978](https://products.swisscanto.com/products/de/Produkte/BVG-3-Anlagegruppen/Gemischt/CH0238052978)
[https://products.swisscanto.com/products/de/Produkte/BVG-3-Anlagegruppen/Gemischt/CH0497631165](https://products.swisscanto.com/products/de/Produkte/BVG-3-Anlagegruppen/Gemischt/CH0497631165)
Sure, their wording of the “investment product” “being **based on** ” the RT/VT unit class fund doesn’t mean that’s exactly what I’ll be **getting** (which might in fact be NT). But frankly, I might be too lazy to inquire further. Just tell me straightforward what fonds my funds are going to be invested in. 🙄
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### Author:  [@wapiti](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/wapiti)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/39 "2020-03-21T14:47:12Z")
> [@San\_Francisco](#):
>
> Also, the fact that “portfolio” data is unavailable for the funds on Swisscanto’s web site doesn’t inspire much confidence in me.
The past performances of the NT class are the same as the VT + fees. At the end, it’s always the same fund. The classes are just created to apply different models of fees between the customers (individual, pension funds, institutionnal, ect).
> [@OrientExpress](#):
>
> Is the administrative fee and the TER (Total Expense Ratio) of the funds available in frankly 0.0%?
Their answer seems quite weird. Because the fund hold 2.5% of “ZKB Gold ETF AAH CHF” with a TER of 0.40%. So technically, you will pay twice the fees.
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### Author:  [@San\_Francisco](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/San_Francisco)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/40 "2020-03-21T16:23:45Z")
> [@wapiti](#):
>
> The past performances of the NT class are the same as the VT + fees. At the end, it’s always the same fund. The classes are just created to apply different models of fees between the customers (individual, pension funds, institutionnal, ect).
Sure enough.
The difference is in the fees.
And that’s the exactly question: Which one am I getting and which fees will I be paying?
Cause fund-of-fund structures charging fees more than once isn’t exactly unheard-of.
It doesn’t need to be that hard and confusing to tell (and advertise) to me.
Also, it shouldn’t be that hard to find more about the **portfolio** I’ll actually be getting than just that:
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### Author:  [@OrientExpress](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/OrientExpress)
#### Post date: [March 22, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/41 "2020-03-22T14:09:48Z")
Found this in-depth review: [https://investinghero.ch/frankly-zkb-3a-review/](https://investinghero.ch/frankly-zkb-3a-review/)
Most of the things have been discussed here already. But the screenshots might be helpful if you want to get an overview.
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### Author:  [@wapiti](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/wapiti)
#### Post date: [March 26, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/42 "2020-03-26T14:56:20Z")
“you’re correct. The real estate funds do have an impact on the TER of 0.00%. This impact is around 0.01% to 0.03%. That you don’t have to pay any fee twice, we’ve set the all-in-fee already slightly lower. Regarding the Gold funds, there the issue has been resolved.”
Answer from Frankly, so I was right. The real cost is higher than 0.48%
However it’s don’t understand the second sentence.
Also, don’t know how they have “correct” the gold ETF issue.
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### Author:  [@wapiti](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/wapiti)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2020, 8:20am UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/43 "2020-03-27T08:20:55Z")
My answer to the last question: ““we’ve set the all-in-fee already slightly lower” Lower than what?
Is the total cost 0.48% +( 0.01% to 0.03%)?”
Their answer “lower to 0.48%. The total cost will be 0.48% + 0.01% to 0.03%. If you have any further questions, please refer to our FAQs [https://frankly.ch/en/faq.html](https://t.co/R0KDnLlSXW?amp=1)”
For me, the 0.48% all-fee cost is not the reality. Advertising this number is misleading.
Either I’m dumb or more probable they don’t understand their own product. If someone understands their answer, please explain 🙂
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### Author:  [@OrientExpress](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/OrientExpress)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/44 "2020-03-27T17:57:15Z")
I don’t get it as well. Thanks for being so persistent and asking them on Twitter.
I started a standing order that will be first executed on 1st of April to gain some experience. Maybe we’ll understand better then.
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### Author:  [@OrientExpress](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/OrientExpress)
#### Post date: [March 27, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/frankly-for-pillar-3a/3249/45 "2020-03-27T18:06:07Z")
> [@wapiti](#):
>
> There answer is not clear, I would assume they sell to have liquidity for the fees
The AGBs are more clear:
> Der Vorsorgenehmer ist eigenverantwortlich dafür besorgt, dass sein Kontoguthaben einen für die Gebühren- und Kostenbelastung hinreichenden Saldo aufweist. Andernfalls ist die Stiftung ermächtigt, zur Schaffung der erforderlichen Liquidität allfällig vorhandene Wertschriften des Vorsorge- nehmers zu veräussern, wie wenn der Vorsorgenehmer der Stiftung einen entsprechenden Auftrag hierzu erteilt hätte. Hält der Vorsorgenehmer zum Zeitpunkt der von der Stiftung initiierten Veräusserung mehrere Wertschriftenanlagen, werden diese anteilmässig veräussert, basierend auf dem jeweiligen Gegenwert in CHF.
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