For foreigners - do you plan to stay in CH post FIRE?

Coffee
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This came from a little group I have with a few friends on whatsapp. Most have been or are abroad (from Greece), yet one who has never left is the most vocal about how bad Greece sucks etc and how lucky we are to be abroad (luck had little to do with it!), and why would anyone ever return there etc etc etc.

Of course taking off the table the obvious question “If you hate it so bad…why are you still there?!”, one of the friends (who’s also lived in CH for a few years, then London, now Marseille) asked me a question “If you won 5+ mn in the lottery, what would you do?”. I said “I’d leave with the next flight”.

It got me thinking and I repeated the question to the various immigrants I know around my building and work, and got the exact same answer every.single.time. Albanian, Australian, Irish, Portuguese, Turkish, German (yes), British, American, Canadian, Dutch, Brazilian, French, Italian, Greek, Russian, Lebanese, Bosnian, Serb, Polish, Indian, Chinese doesn’t matter, they are all looking forward to return to their homelands once [something to do with money] happens. @ThePortugueseExpat ‘s thread reminded me, so I am posting here. If it violates some rule please delete without warning, I’m fine with it.

This is NOT a dig on CH, I repeated the question to people living in other countries (France, Germany, US, UK, Sweden, Netherlands) and got the exact same answer every time. Only one person living in the US said yes.

So the question is “If you are a resident of CH, raised abroad, and won the lottery, would you stay in CH?” (Edited)

  • Yes
  • No
  • Maybe
0 voters
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Maybe rather than foreigner, this is about swiss residents who were raised abroad?

(This would account for swiss naturalized people or people born/raised in Switzerland who do not have citizenship, I find the term foreigner in that context a bit ambiguous)

(There’s a bit of a selection bias, if you no longer consider Switzerland as “abroad”, then you feel like the poll isn’t addressed to you)

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It is a difficult question. The fact that I have young kids growing up here is likely to tie me to the country in order to be close to the kids.

However, if I imagine that I had no kids, what would I do?

  • Pros for CH: things work and it is easy to live here
  • Pros to move: moving to UK or other countries I can be with people who I can communicate easily with and be with people who I just get, and who get me
  • Being in a place where people are more open and friendly could be nice.
  • Age is an issue. If younger, maybe mountains and lakes would be a consideration for activities.
  • If older, I’m not sure it really matters, I guess I could live anywhere and be happy.
  • I’ve been away from home long enough that there is no more ‘going back’ just moving to another place.
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Doesn’t happen to me anywhere so Switzerland is okish, neutral :joy: got neutral citizenship too.

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My only reason to leave Switzerland would be financial. If I can afford to retire in CH I will.
I see lots of downsides of moving abroad in retirement unless you emphasis the E in RE.

  • Plenty of low cost countries , but you will potentially have to learn a language , learn new bureaucracy, processes, laws, pension systems
  • You have a tradeoff between expensive highly developed, safe countries with great health care, or cheaper countries where some services are lacking. Moreover, cheaper countries tend to only be cheaper out in the countryside, e.g. Athens is not exact cheap cheap. This magnifies any systematic issues . E.g. healthcare in a remote greek village will be very different to living in a small town in the Valais both in terms of immediate health care and what is available within a 2 hour ambulance/30 min helicopter.
  • If you have lived abroad for some time then hopefully you will have integrated and made friends. Doing this all over again in retirement is hard, and might not ever be as good when you don’t have shared opportunities like daycare/school/work/kids birthday parties to meet other people consistently.
  • Children
  • Politics, visas and rights. After the unmitigated disaster of Brexit I have lost most of my useful rights to live around Europe. During employment it is much easier to move, otherwise you are at a whim of countries wanting older retirees who will spend some cash before dying and leaving an estate that might get taxed.
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Personally If money would not be a factor, I would live my retirment in Switzerland 100% because I love the outdoors and peace here.

But it doesnt mean I would spend 100% time here, but maybe 70% (I would be eager to leave between mid october and jan, honestly).

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It’s not cheap at all in fact…and healthcare is a big consideration, access to good healthcare drops like a stone the moment one steps out of ~10 substantial cities and a handful of islands.

Thanks for all your inputs so far. This is not meant to be a debate, just curiosity.

Children is another big consideration, probably the biggest for me. I like the Swiss education system, moreover think it’s a great environment for kids to grow up with healthy and confident habits, but having some pushback at home based on the idea that we (all immigrants) are transient here, and solid long-term friendships may be harder for our kids to form. Edit: to expand, the underlying idea is that “money isn’t everything, the social and family network is critical too, and no capable person ever got wasted because they didn’t travel or learn many languages when young”. It is true that people move a lot, and we’ve “lost” some friends who moved - not really lost, but effectively lost, a 10min walk is not a 45min drive.

Of course another big picture idea is that calling 10-20 years’ stay in a country “transient” is absurd.

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Is the pushback coming from the kids themselves? My experience as a Swiss kid going to school with a few kids from other nationalities was that the transient part didn’t come into play, though there was some picking on related to them being foreigners.

I would say:

  • Kindergarten and elementary school kids don’t care (though they can be brutal with kids they decide to pick on).

  • secondary school has chances to be a hassle, but it is for many teens. You should get in having already built some social network and find a few people in your class(es) that you can bind with.

  • travelling is often seen as a good thing and an aspiration while in high school / college so having the potential to develop links with people who can potentially help you travel in their country in the future should be seen as a good sign.

Obviously there are difficulties but they relate more to potentially being “different” than transient in my opinion. Having a good network built outside of school (neighbors, sports, etc.) can help. The parents can help by befriending other parents and getting their kids to play together.

Edit: of course, it varies depending on the place you live in. Some cantons/towns are more culturally exclusive than others.

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Nope, spouse, the kids are fine and probably too young to have any sort of such thoughts though at times they do question why we came here and claim to prefer Greece. We (I) speculate how much it filters to them to live in a good/clean/safe/beautiful environment, but the counter argument is that this is a ”bubble” with little relation to the rest of the world.

No issue with the overall location either though we do note that their friends are either second generation Swiss, or from mixed marriages.

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This is me.

Though I’d extend that to including March. Maybe depending where I’d live then come back for some XC skiing.

But as you say, money is a factor.

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Based on my experience having lived in 17 countries, I am of the opinion that every country has pros and cons. If one learns to appreciate the pros and ignore/accept that cons, one can have a wonderful life just about anywhere. If one is financially advantaged compared to the majority of locals, that’s a big plus. If one has close friends in a country, that’s worth gold, at least if you’re a social type.

I’ve never had an issue getting everything I needed (including medical care) in any country I’ve lived in, including developing countries. But then, I’ve never had serious medical conditions. I suppose for that there is always the option of a temporary return to Switzerland (for Swiss citizens).

With that view, which country (or countries) to live in would largely be a financial decision for me. Firstly, you must choose the lifestyle you want, and which things are important to you. Once you have done that, you can use simple deduction to eliminate all the locations that do not meet your criteria. After that, do a 1:1 comparison of each cost point, including taxes.

If moving to another eligible location would allow you to become financially independent 5-10 years earlier than in Switzerland, it would be difficult for me to find an argument against relocating. I would dare say that for anyone who’s setup does not allow for savings of CHF 1-2 million by FIRE, relocating would be the only option, unless content with a very frugal lifestyle.

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I think this is the key. Maybe financial aspects might limit certain options, but since people manage to live in all countries with very low wages, I’m sceptical that financial decisions would be the driving factor.

I think it boils down to the lifestyle you want e.g. what kind of social life, what activities do you want to do, who do you want to be around, what kind of weather do you like.

Someone who likes skiing would have different candidate countries than those who like surfing. I dislike very hot weather, whereas others love it.

If you need to be close to family, that might drastically narrow down your options.

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5M?! Are you kidding, I would leave for 1M :sweat_smile:

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I voted Yes and No. My goal is to be able to afford living abroad for months at a time. I don’t want to leave Switzerland permanently.

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All opinions are welcome!

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I have to say that Switzerland is a great country to live, grow as a professional and become wealthy.

As this is a FIRE focused forum/community, I feel like that weighs heavely.

I had a very honest discussion with my wife some months ago where I ask:

  1. Is it more important to have 20M$ when we are 65 but having lived far from family and having raised our kids away from family and from the experience that we had growing up
  2. or have 4M$ but have provided them the opportunity to be near their grandparents, uncles & aunts, cousins, be in a country where we know the right moves (from an education & job market standpoint), live near the sea, with 240 days of sun a year and enjoy a childhood similar to what we had?

I plan to leave CH soon as per my other thread so if I won 1-5M CHF, I would take the money and go back :slight_smile:

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I think the $20M vs $4M is a very easy decision.

What might be more difficult is $4M vs $0.8M, or $2M vs $0.4M, or $1M vs $0.2M.

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I am a foreigner living in Switzerland. One of my biggest post‑FIRE concerns these days is the social side of life. If I stop working and want to spend my time outdoors and in nature, I’d love to have people around to share those activities with.

The challenge is that there won’t be many people in a similar life situation here. All my friends will have full-time jobs, and Switzerland isn’t exactly a hotspot for younger retirees. My home country isn’t either.

What does seem attractive for an outdoorsy, socially active lifestyle in Europe is Spain—places like Girona or Mallorca in particular. I am considering it as a viable option.

I’m curious whether anyone else has been thinking along similar lines.

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Yes, I don’t rule out moving to ‘retirement’ destinations like Algarve in Portugal.

You essentially move into a retirement community.

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You’ll want to get to know more people with non-traditional work histories (self-employment, “early retirement”, part-time/shift work). They exist, it’s just they’re much more camouflaged than you’d think

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