FIRE in 2 years – what is wrong with my plan?

It may be that I stand corrected here. Not sure if what I found from googling after your post is accurate, but it sounds like the cap on premiums (i.e. no more than 150k or so) was abolished late 2023. If this is the case, that sounds like a lot more fair from a contribution perspective.

Re not sounding like an intent to be available and actively searching for work I believe you are reading things that were not written. If you get fired and get unemployment benefits for 1.5 years you are still expected to meet the requirements in terms of availability / job search. Having said that, many people wouldn’t mind to have such a lower stress period (which it is for many, especially in corporate roles). If the poster would not be available and not searc for work, he’d soon not get the insurance benefits. It’s not like dealing with RAV is a ‘fun’ thing, it comes with commitments / expectations.

The other point still stands: if you as a claimant meets the legal requirements (unemployed, available for work, and actively seeking employment), entitlement should not depend on whether you have CHF 10k or CHF 10m in investments.

I wrestled with this thought as well, as the idea is quite intriguing to say the least.

Even if you’re a high earner and quit yourself you’re looking at 1.5y+ of continuous guaranteed payments. The state would ironically be funding your FIRE journey, which is - from a monetary perspective - the ultimate SORR hedge :sweat_smile:.

However morally, this is of course wrong. Given you actually want to FIRE and not search work, this is “cheating” the system. Now: One could say that one has already paid enough by earning wages for 10-20+y to reach FIRE - and that’s a valid point imho, but it’s technically “illegal” if you do it this way.

In practice, writing a few alibi applications is quite easy. The biggest inconvenience will be that the RAV will send you to courses to polish your CV or skill set - and everyone there knows that 90% of the people who really want a job will find one without their program. (This is my opinion as well: If you want to work in Switzerland, you’ll find a job in less than a month).

I think this actually proves the point: the real dividing line is not FIRE vs non-FIRE. It is whether someone is genuinely available for work and complies with the rules.

But that is different from someone who is financially independent, loses or leaves a job, is open to suitable work, applies properly, attends RAV meetings, accepts reasonable requirements, and may or may not find a job. That person is not “using unemployment to FIRE”; they are unemployed and insured.

Also, the idea that “anyone who wants a job in Switzerland finds one in less than a month” is far too simplistic. That may be true for some sectors and profiles, but not for everyone, especially older workers, senior specialists, highly compensated employees, niche professionals, or people whose previous compensation makes “suitable work” harder to define.

If we want stricter enforcement against fake job-search activity, fine. But that should apply to everyone, not just people who happened to save enough money to have options.

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Wrong, I expect that it takes me 9-15 months of active job search to find another job. With active, I mean 20 serious applications a month. There is simply too many people that apply and too little jobs these days. You compete against 200-500 alplications per listed position.

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Agree. And there are many more complicating factors (for higher compensated roles, which I suspect covers a large part of the population of this forum). E.g.

  • Hiring managers who feel threatened by you (because you can do their job)
  • Ageism
  • Senior roles which aren’t REALLY available (e.g. they know very well that an internal candidate will get it)
  • Etc
  • Etc

Society doesn’t benefit from a highly skilled executive sitting behind the cash register at the local Coop so, yes, finding a job is not that difficult, finding one which aligns with your experience is (for many people).

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I mean it depends on what jobs you search I guess or “how bad you want a job”. I didn’t mean you’ll get a salary raise or a job with equal benefits in a week.

Just as a reference, I know plenty of people that married a Thai woman that had a job within 2 weeks after their residency permit - some people even before the plastic card was given to them. All of those are quite recent as well.

If a person with 0 language ability (not even English in some cases) can find a job, I feel like a person (hopefully) well integrated here with a substantial skill set will be able to do so as well… And if not, you can always do some work “below you” ad interim.

My (unpopular) theory is that many laid of 50+yo were very unproductive and did some random bureaucratic bs job that has no real value for most companies. Heck I even feel my job is that way, which is why I want to FIRE in the first place. If I look at how many overpaid boomers there are, I am not scared of searching a job where you need actual skills.

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It’s definitely gone, lasted from 2011 to 2022. It was 0.5% (not 0.55%) each.
Source eg https://www.seco.admin.ch/dam/seco/de/dokumente/Arbeit/ALV/Grundlagen/Faktenblatt_ALV-Beiträge.pdf.download.pdf/DE_Faktenblatt_ALV-Beiträge.pdf

It can be interpreted into that reading, though, can’t it? :wink:

That’s where you are reading / commenting things not written. No one asked OP to voluntarily yield it.

Anyway, I think OP wouldn’t even need to suffer through 2 more years working or “job searching”. With 3.6m in assets + equity in house, and eventually 40k of AHV, it’s completely feasible even as-is.

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It really depends on the field and your profile. Civil engineers/drawers would find something in ~3 months with roughly 10 postulations total.

Several other branches have a harder time.

Someone who’d be willing to take any job would find something within 1-2 month either working in agriculture, the hospitality industry or something else. They would be doing long hours for little pay and would probably qualify for subsidies if they have dependants at all, so not optimal i.e., people with other options/a dedicated job profile would take more time searching for something in their field before taking the first job available within 1 month.

Edit: as a data point, I quit my job at the end of March without something lined up and found a suitable job after 1 month of search and 5 applications total. The job market really isn’t an homogenous pot, some sectors are super hot and some are downsizing their workforce as we speak.

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One of the reasons for ALV is precisely so you can focus on finding a job which leverages your skills / experience (for your benefit and for society as a whole).

Your point about people who are fired being useless or else they’d not be fired (which is essentially what you’re saying) displays an immense ignorance.

You would find something within 4 hours in a low paying job at McDonnalds, same for agricultural jobs. You just show up and start tomorrow. Still very common.

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No, because if not available for work etc. you’re not going to get RAV payments. It’s that simple.

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And not in society’s interest to have people which exceptional skills/experience do that work vs. where they can add more value.

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Well, many people get fired during some restructuring and when you’re 50+, good luck to find somebody who hires you, you’re too old (my partner has been told so much, not explicitly of course).

As for the numerous overpaid boomers, there are only 3 years left of that generation in work age, and how many still working?

A lot of them actually, and disproportionately often in well paid chair positions, etc. I understand that there are genuine stories of people becoming jobless before pension and sometimes, this leads to very tragic situations…

In the mean however, the most well of people are the oldest and my empathy on a generational level (not an individual, that is always tragic) is quite limited.

I think some posters are mixing up Sozialhilfe and ALV/RAV.

With Sozialhilfe, I can understand the argument that you may be expected to take almost any reasonable work to reduce dependency on public support.

But ALV/RAV is different. It is unemployment insurance. Its purpose is not simply to force someone into any job as quickly as possible, regardless of fit. It is meant to provide temporary income replacement when someone loses employment, so they can continue to meet financial commitments — mortgage, rent, family obligations, etc. — while searching for suitable work.

That is why the system has rules around what counts as suitable employment. I may have the exact number wrong, but my understanding is that at some point you are expected to accept work at around 70% of your previous salary. Personally, I would be happy to do that:)

But asking a formerly high-paid executive or senior specialist to flip burgers is not an optimal use of labour. It does not meaningfully preserve financial commitments, and it is not where that person is likely to add most value to society. If people want ALV/RAV to function like Sozialhilfe, fine — but then do not call it insurance. In that case, let people cancel that insurance altogether and keep more of their income to plan individually.

I also disagree strongly with the idea that people who lose their jobs are necessarily low value-add. That is a very naive view of how companies work.

Some examples:

  1. A new CEO comes in and wants to work with people he already knows, likes, or trusts. Highly competent executives with strong quantified performance records are removed. This happens all the time.

  2. Engineers are fired because a company changes direction and kills a project. Other engineers, sometimes less competent ones, stay simply because they happen to be working on a project that is not being killed, so keeping them is less disruptive in the short term.

  3. People perform necessary work competently — work that can seriously damage a company if done badly — and then management decides the same work can be done cheaper in another country. Again, this happens constantly.

Two more recent examples I have seen close to me:

  1. A friend was recruited from a blue-chip multinational after a 20-year career of steady progression. He performed well, was promoted after one year, and was then relocated with his family to Switzerland. Six months later, he was fired because he had started highlighting a painful issue that needed fixing but was embarrassing for a more senior executive. Firing him was a way for ‘the system’ to bury it. Because he had only been in Switzerland for six months, he had no RAV entitlement.

  2. An accomplished sales leader relocated to Switzerland to help a mid-sized company accelerate growth. After six months, investors decided for reasons unrelated to his performance that they needed to prioritize a faster exit and shift focus from revenue growth to profitability. The CEO terminated the sales leader because otherwise the CEO himself might have been at risk. Again, the sales leader fell just short of RAV eligibility.

So no, it is not only “low value-add” people who get fired while good people stay. Especially at senior levels, job loss is often about politics, timing, restructuring, cost allocation, investor pressure, or simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There are also plenty of people who survive for years precisely because they never rock the boat, never challenge weak decisions, and never put themselves in politically exposed positions.

So yes, people should follow the ALV/RAV rules. But the broader idea that being unemployed is evidence of low value, or that ALV should force everyone into any available job regardless of suitability, misunderstands both the labour market and the purpose of unemployment insurance.

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Too old is often packaged differently:

  • Too expensive
  • You show complete willingness to take a lower comp because you enjoy working and are financially already comfortable: aha, you’ll take the job and leave after 6 months once you find something better.
  • Hiring manager feels threatened because you may be more qualified to do his/her job than he/she is.
  • Etc.

Don’t have any illusion that hiring / firing decisions are focused on “the best person for the job” - other factors are almost always at play.

EDIT: I’ll add one more. Important mid-level position. Thorough process. Great candidate. Hiring decision was (for good reasons) to be made by 2 people (consensus based). Best candidate was dinged in lieu of the other one because… she was too good looking (!) and one of the two decision makers (also a she) didn’t want the competition in the good looks department. That’s obviously not how she defended it, but facial impressions can say a lot;)

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With this comment, you demonstrate that you neither understand corporate culture nor that you were in a senior role yet. Lets talk about this again in 10 years…

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I hope not, as my plan is to be FIRE’d in 10y :rofl:

Also, I don’t want to understand company culture… I want to be paid as much as possible for as little of a headache as possible. This strategy worked quite well for me up until now. And while my job title doesn’t say senior (because we don’t do that at our company), I manage IT projects that cost quite a lot of money and my colleagues are all older than me, while doing the same job… my salary is also quite “senior” I would say - but there is always room to improve of course!

So you were using yourself as anecdotal evidence of somebody who’s not adding much value and is overpaid?

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Absolutely - but I don’t believe this is a “me” problem only. The praised “efficiency of the market” is quite a joke if you ever worked in mid-large companies. They are more bureaucratic than Germany sometimes.

Also, I mainly use my boomer colleagues, who ask me how to do Excel or Azure or how to manage a board, etc. Compensation is not based on value or output all the time - and I don’t have a problem with this per se… I just play the game and it worked pretty well so far.