We are discussing topic that people usually find so normal as breathing or eating.
Work until you go to pension → no. FIRE sooner.
Marry to build a family → ?
Is the second topic so hard to split in pieces? You don’t need to marry to build a family. If you want to, then do it. If not, then don’t. If some rules are too risky, then don’t.
I think the annoying part for Cortana is that they don’t decide what happens if they split, but it’s the government that do that. So instead of marrying write down what you both would do in case of divorce and see if you both agree.
Side note: If kids are involved then forget your rules.
What does that exactly mean? That only the husband enjoys it and the wife doesn’t, and it is some kind of gift the wife gives to the husband? You have lost your mind or what?
Great thread. Mostly all that could be said has been said. Pros, cons, even technical legal advice. All very good advice, you are lucky.
But I highly suspect that people who say things like “if you cannot trust her, why are you going to marry her” are very biased. Maybe lack of wide social circle or experience in life in general. Because : Human beings are not static, we change over time. We are not purely rational beings either. The person you are marrying today, may or may not be the same after X years. Also, statistics to the rescue: What is the percentage of marriages vs divorces? People talk like that is never going to happen IF you choose the right person. But how the hell are you going to know? Were all the % of people who gets divorced fools? I don’t think so. Shit happens. Life is like that.
I know first hand of a bunch of men and women who had traumatic divorces. And I have to say that for the last 10-15 years, women that want to screw up a man in a divorce/kids have it very easy. I know a few cases.
Who doesn’t want things to be fair? But the court system is not fair. It depends on who can afford the best lawyer, it depends on changing laws, it depends on the judge that picked up the case, etc. all of these variables are usually not fair. Even the content of the laws might not be fair: How is it that if you have to pay kids alimony, the mother can use it for herself? Who controls that?
My bottom line: You should not feel bad for thinking this. Any person who knows a bit about how humans behave and how the world works, would know that things can unexpectedly get very, very bad sometimes and it is better to be covered. Or you can end up loosing your house, having to pay a chunk of your salary to the wife, who might not need it because has other undeclared income sources, while at the same time she is living in your house with her new partner. And people think this doesn’t happen… jeez.
I wish you the best on dealing with this. Not an easy job.
In case of a divorce: You will not pay for her life. At least the latest desicions of the Swiss supreme court point towards this. Parents are required to take up work once the children turn a certain age and the percentages increases with time. But you will have to pay alimony for your child. I hope this is not a problem for you. A prenup will not save you from this.
In my opinion, marriage makes you financially more independent, as you have less risk of losing everything. If you lose your job, your wife still has some income, if you die, your wife gets some pension, …
If you are not willing to share your combined income during your marriage 50:50, you’ll need a prenup. But I’m really not sure, why your future wife should agree to that?
As we see its a difficult (but really interesting) topic.
I find myself in a similar spot, where i would like to stay at home and raise the children, but since i earn about 3x more it does not make any sense.
I see this as unfair, and in a future life i would never invest so much time in my education, if this means i can stay more time with my children.
I have not thought about a divorce, and honestly not everything can be measured with money. Like how much would you rate a pregnancy?
I still see marriage and family should be a team effort. You both work for the same goal, there are no “sides” to be on. You can not split everything 50/50. Some times it will be 70/30, and then it might changes again. But you should have the trust that you have someone that backs you up no matter what.
This means that you can’t put a price tag on everything. And the peace of mind you are trying to buy by signing this contract might has a higher price than you are realizing, meaning an emotional/ trust price.
I think is good that you talk about it, but maybe you should have let her come up with a proposal how she would have split everything in case of a divorce instead of lying down a finished “solution” to a non existing problem.
While I agree with your post, I just want to react to this:
I do agree that it would make little financial sense to have you stay at home more and for your spouse to work more instead, that specific phrasing had me thinking, though: if the more desirable alternative would be to have invested less time in your education and earn less (so basically trading money for time), then maybe the best available option for you isn’t one where you optimize the financial situation of your family but one where you sacrifice some of that money you wouldn’t have if you hadn’t pursued your current education in order to regain some of the time you would have had in that situation.
Time is something we have in a finite amount, I think fulfillment is the ultimate measure of our success.
If this is really what you want, you can probably find a 50-60-80% work and spend the time off work with your children. Maybe it’s not super easy to find (especially the 50-60%), but I think you can manage, and that greatly rewards your education. Working only 3 days a week you would earn more than a normal person that works 5 days a week.
Sharing 50% while married is normal. Standard wedding vows include something like: “I, ___, take you, ___, for my lawful wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part.”
Isn’t this the core essense of marriage? It is not a financial contract or a tax election. It is the commitment of a shared a life together, recognising the upsides/downsides and risks yet embracing them nonetheless.
Indeed, even benchmarking externally with kita costs: you’re looking at >30k per year. That doesn’t include:
weekends, shuttling them back and forth, Waking up in the middle of the night, cleaning up after them, breast feeding, cooking, did I mention cleaning up after them, loss of sleep etc. etc.
I guess, the economic way of looking at it is this: the ‘fair’ way is each does their 50% of the duties and reduces their work to 50%.
If Cortana can do this, obviously his salary decreases 50%. He probably also is going to be passed up for promotions etc.
Maybe that is unrealistic, and he should need to find a different job in a different industry which allows for 50% workin. Maybe one where he earns signficantly less.
So then his wife supporting him provides economic value that is the difference between what he has now and this theoretical 50% future.
Of course if all options are not attractive, they can both look to what their BATNA [1] is. Which may be no marriage at all. Or if that is not acceptable, no relationship at all.
Cortana’s concerns are real. After all the divorce statistics show that risk of divorce is high and impact on a high earning man can be very high. Maybe it is not a surprise that many are opting out of marriage or relationships altogether.
BATNA is an acronym that stands for Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement . It is defined as the most advantageous alternative that a negotiating party can take if negotiations fail and an agreement cannot be made. In other words, a party’s BATNA is what a party’s alternative is if negotiations are unsuccessful. ↩︎
Won’t ever be possible with the path I chose. Now working in Private Banking and I’m even working more than before. Not only that, but now there are way more events I need to attend in the evening. But I’m not complaining at all, I love it. Salary will only keep increasing at this point.
I work with 8 colleagues in this team. 2 are happily married, 2 got divorced recently, 1 got divorced around 10 years ago, 1 just seperated with his girlfriend and the other 2 are currently single. I wonder if there the job has anything to do with it.
Well it’s complicated currently. Don’t want to share too many details
Great that you have a job you love, just watch out to not neglect your relationships outside of work. Otherwise you’ll end up with a bag full of money, but alone and unhappy. I had a close friend that rose to the top in his company in a few years, but at the same time lost everything worthy in his life. His wife divorced him, the kids don’t want any contact and all his friends left him, as his job was just too important for him.
Then another way of looking at it (that might help you) is that your GF is enabling you to have 100% of your salary as otherwise without her sacrificing her future career for you, you wouldn’t even have 50% of it (at least not with kids).
Not married yet, but I’ll gladly give up some money, as living with my partner enables me to save thousands of CHF per year (rent, heating etc.).
It gets even better: thanks to her, I don’t need to keep an emergency fund and am able to have nearly 100% of my money invested, as she doesn’t want to invest her savings and has more than enough cash for unexpected expenses for the both of us
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No offense or relationship advice, but already the initial post suggested that.