Covid vaccines - First feedback from people already vaccinated and... what do you think about it?

[Gesk]

https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2015/297/de

Art. 65

[Barto]

Assuming it is true there were risk waivers, the impact of not having them would be that the price of the vaccine would be higher to compensate the pharma companies for the risks and litigation costs which exist on all medicines. Think that AstraZeneca agreed to sell their vaccine to the EU at production cost.

Anyway my point is not about how risky the vaccines are. It is that some people are accepting to take the risk, others are not, and this latter group are causing higher healthcare costs for everyone

[Gesk]

Well the BAG claims in their bulletin 3/21 that the usual rules apply for these covid vaccines.
I don’t see where they claim that they will cover the costs for the pharma company.
The 70k is if no one else is liable.

But then I guess they might have enough lawyers to claim that it was not the responsibility of the pharma company to begin with and you end up being screwed with this default 70k.

[nugget]

@Patron

if you take the vaccine and you end up being disabled

there have been 100s of millions of shots with covid vaccines. how many people got disabled fom it? number please. official or peer reviewed numbers please. otherwise you point is invalid.

meanwhile 4 million people died of it [source], not to speak of the all the suffering at ICUs and lateCovid cases.

The risks of the vaccine got vastly amplified by hysteric facebook & telegram groups and old skool conspiracy theorists, but not by scientifically sound studies.

[nugget]

@Patron

So you’re going to blame those (unvaccinated) who infect others because they are unvaccinated, but when people who are vaccinated (and probably didn’t even know he could pass it on to others) infect another person and that person might die, then he is a hero just because he got vaccinated? There are currently people on holidays and on festivals with no social distancing, no masks and they behave like ever before. In the next days they’re all coming back and even though the percentage might be lower, they will be infecting other people. But for you that’s irrelevant because they have done their duty and got vaccinated.

what a ill-intended twisting of reality. that’s what this and all your argumentation is.

@Patron

So you’re going to blame those (unvaccinated) who infect others because they are unvaccinated, but when people who are vaccinated (and probably didn’t even know he could pass it on to others) infect another person and that person might die, then he is a hero just because he got vaccinated?

The likelyhood of contracting and/ or spreading the virus is much, much greater when you are not vaccinated.

@Patron

There are currently people on holidays and on festivals with no social distancing, no masks and they behave like ever before. In the next days they’re all coming back and even though the percentage might be lower, they will be infecting other people.

pure speculation with zero merit to it.

Likely, this effect postulated by you will be dwarfed and statistically insignificant compared to all the infections based on non-vaccinated people.

@Barto

right on cue !

Whataboutery definition

[Gesk]

I thought on this forum people understood the power of compounding effects.

[nugget]

@Patron

4 million people died in the timeframe of the pandemic, who tested positive with the Corona virus. There is no proof that they have died because of the virus or if they died with it.

Wrong. maybe “proof” is abit of a strong word here, since “the economist” is not exactly a peer-reviewed journal, but matching reported covid death numbers with excess mortality provides a frightening guess on how accurate covid death numbers actually are:

source: Tracking covid-19 excess deaths across countries

just drop that unfounded “covid death rates are reported far too high” - nonsense.

[nabalzbhf]

@nugget

according to

Note: figures are different for delta (2x more contagious, 1000x viral load).

Still a huge reduction, but not enough for viral extinction. Good news is still highly effective for severe outcomes.

[nugget]

@Patron

it is actually difficult to find a consolidated number but only the CDC reports thousands of deaths due to the Covid vaccines,

wrong. you quote the VAERS numbers: 0.0019% or 6789 reports of death from 357 million doses (source). here is actually the case what i debunked of your argument above. Quoting the source:

FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem

there you go. correct for natural mortality (sorry no idea how to) and you will end up with a fraction of that number.

[nugget]

@Patron

In the end we can argue about these numbers forth and back and it leads to nowhere.

wrong. the correct way forward lies in the data, clearly before us all. Don’t now look away now that the numbers don’t support your argument anymore.

get vaccinated asap and thus reduce the time we have to spend in a pandemic situation. It is the most reasonable, sensible and responsible thing to do. You can end this. but you can also keep this alive.

[nugget]

@Patron

As long as the virus does not turn out to pose a significant risk

so, 4 million deaths (+ everything else realated to the raging pandemic) are “no risk”. sorry, your judging has a flaw, not mine.

@Patron

And I suppose that as long as the government oppression, restrictions, Covid certificate and mask mandates etc. persits…

guess who has the biggest lever to change this? you! the un-vaccinated! get the shot, and this problem will vanish…

[Patirou]

@Patron

Well, it is actually difficult to find a consolidated number but only the CDC reports thousands of deaths due to the Covid vaccines, yes that number is still very low but it is a number, then how about thrombosis cases, people getting disabled or other severe effects, then that’s only the CDC so good luck with collecting all that numbers and probably in many countries it doesn’t even get reported correctly. But the point is, the number doesn’t really matter much.

Especially because this number is again misinterpreted and completely false.

You are talking about deaths issuing after a vaccine, reported through VAERS, please have a look on this website how to interpret this :
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/vaers.html

Basically, if someone dies shorthly after a vaccine (or gets any other serious complication), a VAERS is issued to
a/ see if there is a causal effect
b/ make statistical analysis to see if there is an increased risk (like for smoking)

So it is true there has been 6789 VAERS reports concerning deaths, which is 0.0019% of population which has received the shot.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

This means not that the vaccine and the death has a causal effect. CDC gets this report, and then check if there is an actual possible link via statistical models, autopsy, patient history etc.

At thist time, there is only the hint of a possibility that there is a causal link between vaccine and thrombosis. 28 confirmed cases of thrombosis have occured after vaccination (again, not a causal link), of which 12 deaths. And only with the J/J vaccine, which is btw not a mRNA vaccine, but a normal antigenic vaccine which has been used in this form for more than 2 centuries (even longer if you take into account the immunisation against smallpox via the cowpox virus)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-05-12/07-COVID-Shimabukuro-508.pdf

But main point again, throwing around numbers of thousands of death reports after vaccination, whereas actually no causal link is there, and overall without citing any sources, shows the low level of argumentation you have, and how easily it is deconstructed as soon you advance an apparent fact.

This kind of argumentation is symptomatic of your postings, which are mostly misinformed, just a repetition of yourself without a ounce of proper research.

BTW, it took me 10 mins of google to find that out and put it together.

[nugget]

@Patirou

But main point again, throwing around numbers of thousands of death reports after vaccination, whereas actually no causal link is there, and overall without citing any sources, shows the low level of argumentation you have, and how easily it is deconstructed as soon you advance an apparent fact.

This kind of argumentation is symptomatic of your postings, which are mostly misinformed, just a repetition of yourself without a ounce of proper research.

BTW, it took me 10 mins of google to find that out and put it together.

[Sandro]

@Patron

The problem is we were lied to by the government, the government said that once everyone who wants it got vaccinated, they will abandon all measures.

I didn’t hear about this. I am genuinely curious, who made this promise and when?

I found this:
https://www.20min.ch/story/finden-bund-und-kantone-eine-loesung-fuers-impfdebakel-204624550735

Virginie Masserey vom BAG, sagt bis Ende Juli können alle Impfwilligen geimpft werden. Verlaufe alles gut, brauche man ab August die Massnahmen nicht mehr. Aber es hänge auch davon ab, wie viele geimpfte Menschen es brauche, um Herdenimmunität zu erreichen.

I am not saying they didn’t promise it, I just didn’t hear about it.

[Cortana]

Only if the health system isn’t at its limit. Which isn’t the case.

[Cortana]

They are already discussing to use the certificate in bars and restaurants. Gyms and other places will follow for sure.

And I think this is a great thing.

[Wolverine]

@Patron

Fact is I followed almost every press conference and he said that several times without mentioned any constraints.

The problem is that, if that is fact for you, it isn’t for us.

I’m curious about this too because I haven’t heard about it either. As @Sandro, I’m not saying it hasn’t been promised, just that I haven’t heard about it. With the disinformation going around, I like to check my sources before taking them for granted.

[Barto]

I don’t want to be around unvaccinated people whilst the virus is circulating and it looks like my colleagues agree as my employer (big company with a brand name to protect) is only letting vaccinated people on site or with a test

Similarly I’m not going to businesses that don’t have protective measures (waiter not wearing mask - I am not going back there again)

Edit: if I join a gym again my first question is going to be about their protection measures and make clear I want my money back If it is like Patron describes with rules not being followed

[nugget]

@Patron

So what are your ideas on how to resolve it other than an initiative in a few years?

Debunk misinformation, misleading and misinterpretation. Provide a straight forward way out (get vaccinated & stick to covid rules)

@Patron

In about 10 years there will be a vaccine that is not mRNA-based

Johnson & Johnson is not mRNA based. There you go. There is no factual reason to believe the vaccines have long-term issues, not from experience, not from science. only from gut feelings of certain people. this is not a basis to guide nations in their pursuit of wealth and happiness

@Patron

As long as the government oppression, the authoritarian control of free speech and opinion, the restrictions of fundamental rights, the massive propaganda campaign and censorship, the Covid passport, and the mask obligation etc. persists

Wow. oppression you say? alright. no idea what you talk about. authoritarian control? where exactly do you see this? everything that happend is well motivated by the constitution & law, and can otherwise be challanged as such. noone keeps you from filing court. there is no oppression or authoritarian control. Free speech? are you blocked from posting? are internet trolls blocked from posting? Are you not allowed to loudly ask for attention on all social media? Sorry, your perception is skewed. You claim there are problems where there are not.

My fundamental right to be unharmed and move freely are severely restricted by all the people posing a health risk to me and my family. You freedom ends where it meets mine. Yours is not absolute relative to mine.

[nugget]

@Patron

The problem is we were lied to by the government,

Proof please. (not that think goverments always perpetuate the cleanest truth…)

besides, you are whining about an alleged promise that was not kept? and with this you justify to prolong the pandemic situation for everyone? are you for real??

you don’t need to trust the government, but you can trust the solid science that found the vaccines are safe for all means.

This is such a vicious cycle of denial, defiance, and complaing on the consequences of the denial and defience.

Your point of “The Government lied to us so we cannot get vaccinated” is pure strawman and bogus. No merit here, again.