# Childcare costs
**URL:** https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167
**Category:** Life Hacking
**Created:** [January 6, 2021, 1:29pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167 "2021-01-06T13:29:06Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@s-g](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/s-g)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/21 "2021-01-06T19:06:29Z")
> [@xorfish](#):
>
> Maybe it costs a bit, but we really should get this number up to a more sustainable range. We can’t compensate for it with immigration forever. It is a very long term investments in our future and not comparable to holidays or a nice car.
I’m with @Cortana on this.
When you put aside the emotional aspects, from a purely practical standpoint it doesn’t make any sense spending billions to marginally increase local “production”, when the same resource is abundantly available basically for free elsewhere in the world.
And from a global perspective I think the global population growth rate is still too high to be sustainable (and will likely remain too high in the foreseeable future).
Back on the expense topic, at least in Neuchatel child care is very expensive only for high earners.
For low and middle income families it is very heavily subsidized and certainly doesn’t push out of the job market anyone who really wants to work.
I’m sure this can be very different in other cantons though.
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### Author:  [@user137](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/user137)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/22 "2021-01-06T19:08:37Z")
> [@Cortana](#):
>
> I’ve never heard of anyone saying “I would love to have kids, but they are too expensive”.
you clearly haven’t lived in Eastern Europe yet 😢
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### Author:  [@user137](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/user137)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/23 "2021-01-06T19:10:30Z")
that’s what we do now. Wife pharma PhD, works 80% (up from 60% last year), I work 80% (down from 100 last year), the kid goes to Kita 60% with 1 daddy and 1 mommy day in between. It works and we manage to still accumulate wealth, but I don’t yet see how this will continue once the second one arrives.
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### Author:  [@covfefe](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/covfefe)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/24 "2021-01-06T19:38:43Z")
you magically get better, more efficient when the second one arrives? 😁 Honestly I have no clue. My mental models cannot accommodate second one just yet 🤔
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### Author:  [@Bojack](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/Bojack)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/25 "2021-01-06T20:35:59Z")
> [@Cortana](#):
>
> The reason why we make less kids nowadays isn’t cost.
Oh yes, I second that. There is a **negative** correlation between wealth and number of kids. Back when you didn’t have a pension system, kids were your pension system. And since many kids died, you had a lot of them. Now you don’t need kids anymore. I would have no financial issue to support a wife and as many kids as I please. Still I don’t do it. Why? I don’t know myself. It’s just a big step and it reorganises your life in a big way. Also, you want to have kids, be 100% about your partner.
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### Author:  [@LeStache](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/LeStache)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/26 "2021-01-06T20:45:36Z")
> [@covfefe](#):
>
> you magically get better, more efficient when the second one arrives?
This is the lie our parents tried to push. 😅
The truth is that everything gets more complicated. Instead of spending half the effort it’s more like the same effort to the second power. I love my kids but I’m also brutally honest about parenthood.
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### Author:  [@trotro](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/trotro)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/27 "2021-01-06T20:46:41Z")
@Cortana
I think you might underestimate that having offspring is quite a basic human/animal need for many (not everyone).
If we accept this as preferences we want to respect, there might be a trade-off between
- decreased economic productivity if people have to stay home because they can’t afford childcare
and
- decreased economic activity through the distortions caused by the taxes needed to pay for (partially) government funded childcare.
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### Author:  [@Giff](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/Giff)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/28 "2021-01-06T20:47:36Z")
The first child changes your life, the second one takes it completely away. I guess from the third on you start to get used to it (I won’t do that experience).
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### Author:  [@Bojack](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/Bojack)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 8:54pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/30 "2021-01-06T20:54:23Z")
> [@LeStache](#):
>
> Supporting kitas allows for the already educated parents to continue contributing to the society
It sure sounds pretty, but I’m not convinced that it actually works. Raising your own kid is also contributing to society. If you can make more money than the kindergarten costs, only then is there actually an added value to the society.
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### Author:  [@trotro](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/trotro)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 9:02pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/31 "2021-01-06T21:02:42Z")
I’d add the value of (mostly) mothers having a continued career thanks to Kitas.
Kitas are also not the choice between “raising your own” and “letting the state raise them”.
Most parents who send their children to Kita would probably consider themselves as “raising their own kids”.
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### Author:  [@rolandinho](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/rolandinho)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/32 "2021-01-06T21:04:24Z")
> [@LeStache](#):
>
> The truth is that everything gets more complicated. Instead of spending half the effort it’s more like the same effort to the second power. I love my kids but I’m also brutally honest about parenthood.
I fully believe that.
That’s why I’m in the “One and Done” Club! 😄
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### Author:  [@Zurtan](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/Zurtan)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/33 "2021-01-06T21:19:03Z")
> [@Giff](#):
>
> I guess from the third on you start to get used to it (I won’t do that experience).
Same. I’m planning a vasectomy this year. Damn the second one hurt!
We are both working 100%, living in NE and both working in VD (no, we don’t want to move closer as the rent is higher and we don’t like the quality of life there). Due to quite high earning, the price of Kita is pretty high in public, so we went private. Probably will do the same for when the first one will start school probably next year. At least everything is included and he’s taken care of 7/8 to 18:00.
In our field and our experience (management with lot of potential hours, extra work late at night/really early morning or weekend from time to time) we know that going 80% would basically mean the same amount of work and stress for a lesser pay… no thanks.
The positives things are that with Covid we can work from home more often so more time with the kid, and that it is a consequent deduction in taxes. And that they are really cute and just pure love… (but damn that’s a heavy work 😃 )
Kitas help the kid to socialize and to be in contact with others, thing they will almost not do if they were raised by us at home, as we have no family’s here and not a lot of friends with kids. As we say in West Africa : “it takes a whole village to raise a kid”. So if you don’t live in a village, you can pay for it… sad but true!
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### Author:  [@Erma](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/Erma)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/34 "2021-01-06T21:48:50Z")
> [@user137](#):
>
> that’s what we do now. Wife pharma PhD, works 80% (up from 60% last year), I work 80% (down from 100 last year), the kid goes to Kita 60% with 1 daddy and 1 mommy day in between. It works and we manage to still accumulate wealth, but I don’t yet see how this will continue once the second one arrives.
We do the same, both parents working 80%, toddler goes to an in home daycare with which we were very lucky as ours is extremely cheap for Switzerland.
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### Author:  [@LeStache](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/LeStache)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/36 "2021-01-06T22:44:05Z")
> [@yakari](#):
>
> I was wondering if someone here is going the same way?
Sounds like you made a value choice and that’s cool. Following our personal values should be a strong guide in life.
Many people are not able to make the same choice though. With a high income more options become available.
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### Author:  [@MrCheese](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/MrCheese)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/37 "2021-01-06T22:44:33Z")
> [@Giff](#):
>
> The first child changes your life
It might also change your wife/partner… well my vasectomy date is setup for end of February xD
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### Author:  [@LeStache](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/LeStache)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/38 "2021-01-06T22:46:37Z")
> [@MrCheese](#):
>
> well my vasectomy date is setup for end of February xD
Is this the next FIRE trend? Hedging with biohacking. First there was a surprising amount of interest in hair transplants and now I’ve seen vasectomy mentioned a couple of times.
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### Author:  [@MrCheese](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/MrCheese)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 10:53pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/39 "2021-01-06T22:53:19Z")
> [@LeStache](#):
>
> interest in hair transplants
Are you implying hair implants help with career progression? Jeff Bezos is probably the most successful bald person, but also one of few bald successful people… hmmm…
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### Author:  [@user137](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/user137)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/40 "2021-01-06T23:10:48Z")
Not a lot of problems arise at 500k a year I guess 🙂
We make less than half of that at 2x80% but it’s enough to get by.
Also: seems I need some career advice… 😉
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### Author:  [@LeStache](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/LeStache)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/41 "2021-01-06T23:21:47Z")
> [@MrCheese](#):
>
> Are you implying hair implants help with career progression? Jeff Bezos is probably the most successful bald person, but also one of few bald successful people… hmmm…
I have no idea. Personally I’m a sort of fan of the [power donut](https://www.gq.com/gallery/male-pattern-baldness-donut-slideshow). Think Steve Ballmer or Dr Phil. I doubt I could pull it off but one can dream.
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### Author:  [@rolandinho](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/u/rolandinho)
#### Post date: [January 6, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://forum.mustachianpost.com/t/childcare-costs/5167/42 "2021-01-06T23:30:12Z")
In our example we both work not 100%, and Kita costs hurt, but let’s also mention the tax deductions, to not totally frighten off all the childless in our midst.
40% Kita coats Fr 1000p.m. = 12k p.a.
But there’s also deductions which people like to forget.
In our Canton we can deduct 8k from taxable income per child & up to 10k Betreuungskosten per child.
That’s 18k less income at a marginal tax rate of over 25%.
That’s 5k less taxes due p.a.
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