Broker for a residenceless (homeless) Swiss

Of course it’s not alway easy. That doesn’t mean however, that claiming “I’m just a tourist from Switzerland” would be correct or legal.

Claiming you’re a tourist is an “easy way out”, that’ll you most probably get away with all the time.

There are often very specific rules in place for such circumstances (“Entsendung”).
Generally, the person has to have ties to his country of residence then.

https://nomadlist.com/not-a-resident-in-any-country-what-are-your-experiences/7854

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Let me re-phrase, in many countries it would be impossible to set it up, do to this legally, work remotely & get taxed locally on this foreign income.
They would not give you a work permit & without that you wouldn’t get taxed.
It’s not the easy way out, it’s the only way.
And it’d be a cheek to expect OP to register in CH, just so he pays taxes somewhere.
If this weighs on one morally, then one could donate time or money to some local charities & pay your local “taxes” indirectly in that way.

I’ve got rid of the W8-BEN form. But I’m still waiting for a reply from IB and/or Degiro…
But so far nothing.

Another solution would be to use only non-US ETFs/funds

I’ve already more or less decided I’d do that ;-).

btw. the reply from degiro, they don’t seem to care:

Considering your scenario, it should be possible to open an account on our platform.

Using your Swiss bank account, Swiss Tax Identification Number, and your parents residence, an account can be created.

still waiting for IB…

I understand the answer from the broker because in your scenario you should be taxed in Switzerland. That weird that the canton never tries to get you to fill a tax form.

From the canton’s perspective they’re deregistered so it makes sense.

That said I wonder how they’ll react when Degiro or IB will start sending the account information to the Swiss tax authorities :slight_smile:

why do I need to fill out my positions in IB if the tax authorities know it anyways?

I don’t think it includes that amount of detail (iirc it’s partly each country that decide how much data it requires).

may i ask how do you deal with renewal of the Swiss passport?
Sorry little offtopic

Sorry I didn’t reply for quite a while. I’ve got carpal tunnel syndrome in both hands, so I’ve stopped doing everything on my Computer I’m not getting paid for… Meanwhile I’ve got it under control again, but I’m still months in behind with privat conversations…

You should always be able to get it at a Swiss embassy. But the only time I had to renew it so far, I did it in Switzerland. I called to get an appointment, told them I’m residenceless and easily got the appointment. They even asked me if I want to make an Id card (It was one week before christmas, maybe they felt generous). I’ve also got the french nationality. But they refuse to give you an ID Card as long as you don’t live somewhere (Passport is no problem).

Thank you, i was just thinking too far…
I made the mistake and mixed residenceless with stateless.
So, of course you can get an passport.

I hope the carpal tunnel syndrome gets soon better

There is an article in today’s edition of Tribune de Genève that addresses exactly your situation it seems: La loi et vous: Retrouvez les anciennes chroniques! | Tribune de Genève

The bottom line is

Le code civil prévoit que le domicile d’une personne, une fois établi, reste en vigueur «aussi longtemps qu’elle ne s’en est pas créé un nouveau». Selon une jurisprudence constante du Tribunal fédéral, il ne suffit pas de se désinscrire de l’ancien lieu de domicile pour ne plus avoir à y payer d’impôts.

i.e. you continue paying your taxes at your last place of residency. Being unregistered does not change this fact, nor being abroad, as the federal jurisprudence has repeatedly stated.

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In most countries, income while working in another country is not taxable. So if you had residency in Switzerland, income from not working here is not taxable. This is what the people working on (cruise) ships do, they earn their cash on the Bahamas or the philippines and are technically taxed there and de facto not taxed.
Regarding tax, I think you need a lawyer for OECD-Steuerrecht :blush:

If you get your Abmeldung in Switzerland, you also file an unterjährige Steuererklärung declaring until that date. My uncle has done it countless times. (And banks canceled his contracts countless times for his failure to declare a new residency).

Not sure if I understand that correctly, but most countries do tax their residents‘ foreign-sourced income? (even though there’s probably many errors and I wouldn‘t trust Wikipedia for a tax advice)

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There is a difference between several types of residency in switzerland. Zivilrechtlicher Wohnsitz isn‘t the same as Niederlassung (although it is for the most persons).

Check this document: http://www.gsv-lu.ch/handbuch-2018/gsv_05-niederlassung-und-aufenthalt_08-2018.pdf#page16

Your broker will apply withholding taxes based on your stated domicile. Most countries have a dividend withholding tax of 15% for Swiss residents. Notable exceptions are the UK and Ireland. For UK stocks, you pay a substantial transaction tax of 0.5% but then you can receive UK dividends without any withholding tax forever. The UK stock market has not performed well for several years, but it has offered great dividend yields of around 3%. Another interesting example is Greece, which charges only 5% dividend withholding tax. However, given that dividend yields are modest nowadays, most of your returns are capital gains and the withholding tax issue is not too important.

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The worst case is that a broker or a bank asks you for proof of address, for a residence confirmation or even a tax return. If you cannot supply this documentation, they may cancel your relationship. You failed to fulfil your contractual obligation to inform them about address change. But you have not caused any damage and your are in compliance with Swiss law. The worst that can happen is that the bank throws you out. But it will not take you to court, or anything like that. IB shows in their FAQ what kind of documents they accept as proof of address.

To prevent problems like this, it is a good idea to open accounts with several banks and brokers. Keep them as backup, in case you ever lose your main account. There are many offers without fixed costs (Neon, N26, Zak, etc). Swissquote does not charge custody fees if you only have cash and no securities. A UBS savings account also has no fixed costs.

If a bank sends you a letter to an invalid address, the bank will investigate your domicile. To prevent this problem, create an online account with the Swiss Post office, using your name and your parents’ address. A registered letter will be sent to you to confirm the address. Now you have full control of letters sent to your name and address. Even if your parents move. You can divert letters to any other address in Switzerland, for example to friends or a scanning service such as Peax.ch. The mail forwarding service costs about CHF 200 per year. Just keep paying this bill and do not inform the Swiss Post about your whereabouts.

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If the Swiss tax authority conducts a major investigation, insist on your Swiss tax domicile, and you take them to court, then yes, it will turn out this way. This is what the federal jurisprudence has repeatedly stated.

The practice is a little different. The Swiss tax authorities accept the vast majority of deregistrations. There are hundreds of them every day. You show up in person, say that you are permanently moving abroad, fill in your new address, sign the Abmeldeerklärung and file your final tax return. You are not required to show documents that prove your new residence. Most cases are not subject to a major investigation by the tax authority, let alone by the federal jurisprudence.

In the remote event that the Swiss tax authority questions your case, you show them a long-term apartment rental contract in the other country. That will do. The Swiss do not ask for electricity bills with your name on it, as is common in the US, for example. What matters is not whether you pay taxes in that other country. But whether it is the “center of your life” where you have the “intention” of living permanently. What matter is the Swiss definition of residence, not the perspective of the foreign government.