Bad investment choices: let others learn from your fails/ mistakes!

Hi Julianek,

thanks for the clear hint, this is clear enough to stop immediately paying in it. I’m more conservative, and I’m calculating with a lower yield about 3-4%, but the difference is still big! I didn’t calculated with the contributed “bonus value” of the insurance, but I’d better NOT to calculate with an optimistic scenario :slight_smile:

Thanks anyway!
Mr.P

Hi Together,

UPDATE in this case:

I’ve contacted Axa 4 times in the last 1,5 months. I described clearly and detailed the case from my view, and claimed the consulting. I mentioned at least two times, what I told the insurance broker: “I don’t want to start with a life insurance”.

Finally I got the official answer via post. After an agreement between the insurance broker and Axa the solution is to end up the contract, and refund my already paid premiums in full. For the years 2016 & 2017 they will transfer 100% of my premiums to an existing 3a pillar account (VIAC), and my payments for this year 2018 will pay out 100% back to my bank account.

I still can’t beleive it. I suggest you not to accept always the first option and answer of an insurance company, and suggest also not to give up!

But first of all Don’t stick your 3rd pillar to a life insurance! NEVER! I still beleive this is a legal scam.

Mr.P

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This is something completely different, but one time I requested an offer for insurance by the same company and never followed up because I found a better deal. A month later, the responsible broker for the insurance offer changed it to a contract. When I asked him, he claimed that I signed up for the insurance online. When I stated that I did not, he just said “well, online contracts don’t require a signature. And you clicked on something, otherwise I would not have had the contract on my desk.” But what he had lying around was a contract offer (german: Offerte). I have no idea how such a person can be a representative for a big insurance company like the one you mentioned.

Luckily I managed to talk to a smart technician at that company and he was able to determine, that I never “clicked” on anything else other than the request for the offer. Needless to say, I won’t be dealing with them ever again. So, I understand your frustration. Some brokers are way too aggressive.

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Hi, so glad I just read this! I am currently also looking at all the insurances I have now.
I also got a 3a Pillar / life insurance 5 years ago from PAX for which I also pay CHF 3020/year. (I haven’t paid this year yet.)
Now, I am wondering which is the better option:

  • continue to pay - I have a family and do have people depending on me
  • cancel it and lose most of the money I paid (I heard the costs are high) or
  • detain (sistieren) not to take the money out, but not continue to pay.

I asked PAX for a call back so that they can give me the real numbers of what each option would cost. Looking forward to hearing from you all!
Thanks and cheers,
Carina

I have my life insurance with PAX, but it is not 3a, just plain insurance. As a matter of fact, it was one of the best offers on the market and I’m happy with the premiums I’m paying (~400 CHF/year for 500k insurance)

If you want to keep life insurance, try to find out if you can get out of the 3a part and convert to insurance only.

I doubt it … they are running a legal scam with 3a “life insurance” and they know it.

I have risk insurance as well and its surprisingly hard to find. Everyone wants to sell you those 3a money traps.

But I also have a bad investment to share: I invested in gold in 2009 and basically I got me nowhere. I missed out on one of the best bull markets ever due to me thinking it was a “safe” investment and surely would rise with inflation.

Also I invested in Easyjet right after brexit and then it dropped further. I sold when I broke even on the investment again which cost me 30% return over the next months. I learned from this that sometimes you just have to be patient with your investments. I made the right decision then the wrong one …

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So now you’ll sell the gold and buy stocks :wink: ?

Yeah I invested in stocks big time last year - cant complain about my returns :slight_smile:

It is up to you. If you really need a life insurance, well, look and ask for the alternatives at PAX.

My life insurance was fixed until 2047!!! This means: every year in each month at least a 100 chf payment for 28 years more… OMG!!! And the return of the product was miserable. (Oh ok, they insured me a “technical return” about 0,1%… LOL!

I wanted definitely stop this story. I was there before to loose around 8-9k CHF, but luckily ended up with a happy end.

I’m free, and started in November 2018 with VIAC. Till now about 10-11% return. (But I’ll keep to pay the maximum, and invest into a global 100 strategy)

My colleague told me that for selling a life insurance to a young person the insurance company pays the salesman around 10-15kCHF. I suppose this scam will not disappear soon…

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Hi All,

Another case with life insurance/3a. This time with Axa via PostFinance. We even have troubles figuring out what product my girlfriend bought back in 2011. I don’t even talk about getting to know all the financial details.
All attempt to get info/help ends up with some inadequate answers.

Interesting/scary thing is they claim that contract can’t be canceled, apart retirement/self-employment/buying house. Any ideas is that even possible? One way ticket without option to cancel/buy back?

Cheers.

I seriously doubt that the contract cannot be canceled. @Mr.Paprika had also a contract with Axa and managed to get out of it.
The sales guy responsible for your contract has to tell you:

  • what is the product you bought (there should be at least a termsheet/a contract saying how the product works). If there is no contract, there is no product and you can stop paying.
  • what is the current state of the product, and yes, that includes where goes the money (which part is savings, which part is risk insuring)
    If the guy does not comply, tell him that you will bring this to your legal advisor (which you will need anyway at some point if Axa does not comply, and given the amounts at stake).
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They are probably talking about the 3a part there, which is indeed bound until you do any of those things. But if you don’t like AXA they still have to let you transfer your 3a money to another 3a provider.

The life insurance part you should be able to just cancel, even if you loose some money when you do that. But it’s probably still worth it. If you need a live insurance because e.g. you have little children, just pay for the insurance without any saving parts.

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Hi there,

Any experiences with PAX?

When I arrived in Switzerland 5 years ago seemed advice from a “tax advisor” to make sure I was making everything right. He not only adviced me wrongly and ended up paying an extra 2kCHF taxes on that year, he also sold me a 3a Life insurance policy. I want out.

I accepted because they guaranteed an amount at retirement that was higher than what a 3a bank account would give me. And I was risk averse.

It’s not clear how much I’m contributing to retirement and how much to life insurance. It’s not clear how much I have or what penalties I have if I get out.

Of course they’re ignoring my emails.

Oh btw I have ever since filed my taxes myself. Just trying to optimize the last part: claiming withheld taxes from dividend-paying stocks from European countries (apart from DA-1).

Thanks guys!

They are obliged to tell you and are likely going to do so if you just threaten with your legal advisor. If they still dont tell you, you better cancel asap

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Thanks! I want to cancel anyway, but first I need someone to get back to me. Then, unless the penalties are outrageous (in which case I might wait for a few years) I will cancel right away and move everything to VIAC or even PF 75.

I will insist after Easter and will call as well. So happy Easter everyone!

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Ok, so I can report back.

I’ve got an answer from PAX. They’re telling me:

  • They guarantee at least CHF 303’686.00 on 01.12.2053
  • Out of the 6768 annual payment, 5998.15 go to savings and 769.85 go to risk
  • Buy-back value on 01.04.2019 is CHF 22’570
  • If I cancel, they will wire the buy-back value to the new institution

To give you some context:

  • I have paid 6739 in 2014, and 6768 2015 through 2018
  • The above points means that I will lose 11k in the process of cancelling
  • I have calculated an equivalent interest rate (assuming whole payment goes to savings, and that the payments are 6768 until the end - I know it’s not true) of 0.69%

It is this interest rate that is well above what 3a savings accounts offer nowadays that made me sign. Old me.

The interest rate is 1.25% on the accumulated capital (savings) but who needs a life insurance when I have no people depending on me.

Now, I want to reply asking them about what is the buy-back value later in the year and what is the latest date in 2019 that I can ask to cancel this policy on without incurring in any penalty. Is there anything else I should ask them in your opinion?

Also, what is your opinion on putting 25k worth of 3a (so basically all I could get today + 3k in 2019) in a PF 75 3a? And then start building my VIAC portfolio? Or you would go full VIAC?

Thanks, mustachians!

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Just a side note with such projections: The big question mark is what you will be able to purchase with CHF 304K in 2053. If the prices end up catching up with the money creation that has already happened since 2008 (chart here), this will be the price of the equivalent of a high-end FIAT 500 of today.

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Indeed. I definitely want to cancel this insurance policy. I’m just trying to optimize the process.

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one more motivation to cancel and set it up better:
if you had, instead of once those 300k 5 times the exact same contract on 60k, your tax load on recieving the money in 2053 would be 5x 2’239 = 14’525 vs. 29’561 (married Lausanne tariff). So even if you canceled this policy and right away signed the same sh*** abit in 5 chunks, you’d be ahead of the current projected losses.
CS calculator

@PF & viac: thats a matter of taste and chioce. i’d be full in for 5 viac accounts, but that doesnt mean you should do the same

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